(October 20, 2026 at 6:54 pm)emjay Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:47 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: I think animal suffering is about human suffering. It makes people like you suffer. Animals themselves don't have souls, and therefore don't know they're suffering. The one who suffers is you, and God allows it for a greater good

If they experience pain, then they suffer... simple as that... whether they 'know' it or not.

Indeed, one doesn’t need knowledge to experience something. An animal could feel pain without being aware of what's happening to it . Though animals are well aware that they are in pain as they has responses exclusive to expressions of pain. 

(October 20, 2026 at 7:02 pm)AngelThMan Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:54 pm)emjay Wrote: If they experience pain, then they suffer... simple as that... whether they 'know' it or not.

As long as there are possible explanations, it refutes the animal suffering objection, because they demonstrate it is not an unsolvable problem. I'm just a human and came up with them. Imagine how much better God can do. Though the Bible does tell us things will be revealed in the afterlife, and some things are only for God to know.

Possible explanations:

A) Animals don't have souls and therefore only have the appearance of consciousness. Some theists believe that animals don't have the same soul as humans because God didn't personally breathe life into animals as He did into Adam and Eve. So in this scenario, animals appear to have experiences but actually don't at all. They are in essence biological entities in motion having no experiences, though equipped with survival mechanisms that give the appearance of consciousness.

B) God has imbued all animals with His own Spirit, so it is He who is experiencing suffering, and not any animals.

C) Animals do have souls, and God has a system for judging them based on their natures and limited intellect. Animals that pass this test will reign in heaven. The Bible does describe animals in heaven.

D) Animals have no way to serve God or prove their love to Him given their limited intelligence, and so their suffering is how they earn their salvation and eternal happiness in heaven

E) Animals have no concept of I or them, or of what’s good or evil, therefore they suffer here but will be in heaven for eternity.

Maybe it's one of these, or maybe it's something else entirely different. But these possibilities prove that God could have a morally sound reason for animal suffering. We just have trust Him.

Nope, there are no explanations, only excuses and declarations of blind faith.

A) A silly book of fairy tales does not refute the scientific fact animals suffer. They don't have the appearance of pain; they have the biology of pain and express the emotional weight of pain . 

B) No, it’s the animals that are clearly feeling the pain, not some hypothetical, unproven supernatural being..

C) Another silly fairy tale book that fails to answer the question.

D) More assertions and blind faith 

E) Same as D 

You’ve failed to address animal suffering in any way beyond “God said so” or “magic book says so.” In reality, it’s clear they suffer, yet you offer no explanation other than blind faith and assertions, neither of which provide real answers.

(October 20, 2026 at 9:10 am)AngelThMan Wrote: No!!! There are no rules under atheism. None. That's my point, and you're only helping my argument.

There are plenty of rules "under atheism" (whatever the fuck you think that means), you pig-ignorant chuckle-fuck.

We all operate under the same laws and we all share basically the same morality. It's you who has no fucking clue how this all works, and you refuse to learn.

There is no ignorance as bad as willful ignorance.

(October 20, 2026 at 7:19 pm)Ravenshire Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 9:10 am)AngelThMan Wrote: No!!! There are no rules under atheism. None. That's my point, and you're only helping my argument.

There are plenty of rules "under atheism" (whatever the fuck you think that//i] means), you pig-ignorant chuckle-fuck.

We all operate under the same laws and we all share basically the same morality. It's [i]you who has no fucking clue how this all works, and you refuse to learn.

There is no ignorance as bad as willful ignorance.
[/i]

Your just in time for the dumb apologetics section ....lol

(October 20, 2026 at 9:45 am)AngelThMan Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 9:30 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There are all sorts of rules “under atheism”.  You’ve got a bunch of atheists telling you as much.  Subjectivists rules, relativists rules, objectivists rules.  In two of those types of rules, there’s even a decider, explicitly.  In one of them, there isn’t, by definition.

Insomuch as we’ve come full circle it is down to you having prepared yourself to argue with a different set of propositions than the ones you’re actually encountering.  Essentially repeating yourself on a loop despite those objections having no weight to the positions you’re actually encountering.

That there are no rules you’re “bound” to accept…like gravity…is a given under -every- moral understanding…with or without gods.

I reject all those so-called rules. What have I don't wrong? I don't care about anyone's opinion. I want to know what I'm doing wrong objectively

Ignoring every fucking thing that's said to you that you disagree with.

(October 20, 2026 at 7:22 pm)Ravenshire Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 9:45 am)AngelThMan Wrote: I reject all those so-called rules. What have I don't wrong? I don't care about anyone's opinion. I want to know what I'm doing wrong objectively

Ignoring every fucking thing that's said to you that you disagree with.

BBecause he has no argument against it, he relies solely on blind faith and the words of a few old, dusty books, claiming them to be objective when they are in fact totally subjective.

(October 20, 2026 at 11:33 am)AngelThMan Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 11:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: All terms are “made up terms”……?  You’ve stolen, that’s what you’ve done wrong.  Whether or not someone catches you doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen.  Plenty of thieves get away with it, regardless of whether or not there are gods.  Whether or not you care that you’ve stolen, or whether or not you care that you’ve done something wrong…doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen, or whether or not you’ve done something wrong….again, regardless of whether or not there are gods.

Me role playing: I don't think stealing is wrong. I believe everything belongs to whoever can get their hands on it.

I don't think you're "role playing," more likely looking for an out that let's you do whatever the fuck you want, but if you are...

You still live in a society where stealing is both morally and legally wrong. If it were just for personal gain and you're caught, depending on what you stole, you may get yelled at, fined, even jailed or imprisoned. This is true with or without a decider, with or without gawds.

Quote:Me role playing: I don't think stealing is wrong. I believe everything belongs to whoever can get their hands on it.

That’s not roleplay, that’s rationalization. But who knows—maybe the magic sky daddy has some mysterious reason for letting you steal, since it’s the excuse you use for everything else. Just have faith… lol.