Sophistry 'proves' exactly nothing,I demand proof..


As much as I like Sprong and his compassionate, rational approach, his ideas are just that;his ideas.

Can't really see the point arguing about an eternal hell ( a concept invented by Saul of Tarsus) when nobody has yet managed to prove the existence of a god who is meant to create hell.

All I will say is that an omniscient god abrogates free will,making the very notion of any form of punishment OR reward meaningless.

(January 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: Freewill

I have no idea why I'm bothering to respond to this. . .

I'll say it slow, so you can understand it.

If. . .god. . . is. . . infinitely. . . persuasive. . . or. . . omniscient. . . there. . . is. . . no. . . free. . . will.

You missed the entire point of the original post. Good job.
Let's say you're right, and god exists and is omnipotent and omniscient. (You know what those words mean, right?) It's not your choice to believe in him or not, because he made you the way you are, he made all of your life experiences, and he already knows what you will end up believing. If you don't see the logic here you're an idiot.

How can someone say "My god gives us all freewill" on one hand, then on the other hand say "This is a book describing how my God wishes you to live your life. If you dont do it, then you will be tortured in fire for all eternity"

That alone is NOT freewill....

The deeper you probe into this "god" fellow, the more obvious he is a tyrant, the more obvious this "freewill" is a lie.

(January 9, 2012 at 8:45 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: How can someone say "My god gives us all freewill" on one hand, then on the other hand say "This is a book describing how my God wishes you to live your life. If you dont do it, then you will be tortured in fire for all eternity"

That alone is NOT freewill....

The deeper you probe into this "god" fellow, the more obvious he is a tyrant, the more obvious this "freewill" is a lie.

In my view, there are two reasonable definitions for "freewill": freedom from coercion, and freedom to act. In my view, the threat of hell negates the former, and foreknowledge negates the latter - though theists often claim that their deity's perfect foreknowledge does not interfere with the free exercise of choice. I find that argument unconvincing.

Quote:This is a book describing how my God wishes you to live your life. If you dont do it, then you will be tortured in fire for all eternity

Yup. I think that's a pretty good description of coercion. The film "Sophie's Choice" comes to mind..

(January 9, 2012 at 8:26 pm)Aegrus Wrote:

(January 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: Freewill

I have no idea why I'm bothering to respond to this. . .

I'll say it slow, so you can understand it.

If. . .god. . . is. . . infinitely. . . persuasive. . . or. . . omniscient. . . there. . . is. . . no. . . free. . . will.

You missed the entire point of the original post. Good job.
Let's say you're right, and god exists and is omnipotent and omniscient. (You know what those words mean, right?) It's not your choice to believe in him or not, because he made you the way you are, he made all of your life experiences, and he already knows what you will end up believing. If you don't see the logic here you're an idiot.

You call me an idiot and you wrote this, "It's not your choice to believe in him or not ... he already knows what you will end up believing." Now the last part of your statement shows I have a choice, so who is it that is an ...

---

(January 9, 2012 at 8:45 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: How can someone say "My god gives us all freewill" on one hand, then on the other hand say "This is a book describing how my God wishes you to live your life. If you dont do it, then you will be tortured in fire for all eternity"

That alone is NOT freewill....

The deeper you probe into this "god" fellow, the more obvious he is a tyrant, the more obvious this "freewill" is a lie.

Shows how little you know of freewill and God for that matter, God does not torture and you can not show me that through the scriptures, you determine your destiny.

---

(January 9, 2012 at 11:35 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(January 9, 2012 at 8:45 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: How can someone say "My god gives us all freewill" on one hand, then on the other hand say "This is a book describing how my God wishes you to live your life. If you dont do it, then you will be tortured in fire for all eternity"

That alone is NOT freewill....

The deeper you probe into this "god" fellow, the more obvious he is a tyrant, the more obvious this "freewill" is a lie.

In my view, there are two reasonable definitions for "freewill": freedom from coercion, and freedom to act. In my view, the threat of hell negates the former, and foreknowledge negates the latter - though theists often claim that their deity's perfect foreknowledge does not interfere with the free exercise of choice. I find that argument unconvincing.

How do you see foreknowledge to be control over another.

(January 9, 2012 at 4:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: I know before I even write the first word to you that you will disagree with what I say, now does that make me all knowing, not in the least.

Cinjin Wrote:So you're saying that your god is NOT all knowing. mmm, ok. I know a LOT of christians that would disagree with you ... but whatever.

You know that's not what I'm saying, I can not even imagine how you could come up with such a statement, unless you've lost it and that would no be a surprise.

Quote: Does that mean because of this knowledge it was pre-planned by me that you would disagree, I do not think so.

Cinjin Wrote:This analogy doesn't work. You do not claim to be the creator of the universe.

Of coarse I'm not God, what does that have to do with what I said.

Quote:God knew what would happen and yet gave man freewill,

Cinjin Wrote:so he knew the outcome of his decision ... so now you're back to "god DOES know everything" .... which is it??? Make up your mind.

Get real, that is if you want me to take you seriously. I never meant that and you know it. I've always said that God is omniscient.

Quote:God also planned to sacrifice his Son for the redemption of man before he created, this plan was the only thing that was predestined,

Cinjin Wrote:So even though you just said that he "knew what would happen", now he only has one thing predetermined. That's not possible as it is a contradiction. If you know that most of mankind is going to turn down your offering, you can't pretend you don't know about it.

Man I do believe you've lost it, you know that predestined and foreknowledge are two totally different things, God foreknew that man would fall so God predestined his Son to be a sacrifice for man. Do I really need to spell all this out for you, aren't you a grad of Bob Jones University.

Quote:this is the love God has for man kind.

Cinjin Wrote:I'd rather do without it. It's greasy and covered with strings attached.

You have the freewill to reject God's sacrifice he made for you. There are no strings attached, that's just the way you have chosen to view it because you have chosen not to believe. It all falls on your shoulders.

Quote: Yes, because of God's nature you can reject him and he will not make you believe, this is freewill.

Cinjin Wrote:dumbest one yet ... even the Bible says, every knee shall bow. In other words, he will indeed MAKE you believe - and then after that - burn you anyway. What a cocksucker!

You think what I've said is dumb, wow, you are truly blind. Oh, you left out the part about, every eye shall see... this passage as you well know means God will give you the proof you have always wanted and yes it will be to late at that point.

Quote:Outside of choosing to believe or not is not truly freewill, it is the result of your choice.

Cinjin Wrote:horse shit

Such an intelligent answer, thought you might do better than that.


[/quote]

1-If God is omniscient then there is no free will - I believe this to be false (or misleading at best) because:
a. God's perspective and knowledge is unattainable from our perspective
b. While he may have a summed up knoweldge, we don't have access tothe whole of that info.
c. Free will then as an absolute not exist...
d. but, for all practical purposes from our knowledgebase we would have nominal control over what choices we make.

So the only statement I could agree with is "If God is omniscient then there is no absolute free will " but I'd prefer it written,
"Without God's omniscient perspective, free will (aside from instincual reactions) has no author but the self."

But that is the problem Tacky..."you believe" sans any evidence to support your "belief'

You may as well be labelled "Mentally Ill"