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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 6:14 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2012 at 6:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Do you think that the number of "killers without cause" in human society is proportionately higher than the number of "killers without cause" in other animals? If so, how did you determine this? So, rarely means exactly what now? Human beings are rarely serial killers, and? Serial killers are also, btw, practicing and honing their skills with every murder.
Our instinct is to not put our hands in the fire (that is, once we've felt it (soft fascination)). You've never seen an animal put itself in harms way to defend it's fellows, "overriding an instinct"? Do you want me to bury you in youtube links or can you save us both the time and trouble and acknowledge that this is not a uniquely human action? Is it not instinctual to protect members of your group, or members of your species from other species or members of other groups (or even your own?)
Why should "bad wiring" be eliminated? The killers survive and breed, the dead do not. Natural selection isn't attempting to refine something along the lines of what you believe to be "bad-wiring" GC.
(case in point, rape is how the orangs get their breeding in behind the dominant males back..so it looks like nature is selecting for rapist apes...doesn't it..lol)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 6:51 pm
Quote:Chimps that ignore their instincts and do something senseless are probably wired wrong and would be a determent to themselves and their troop. Thus through natural selection this bad wiring would or should be eliminated.
Probably as good an example of Natural Selection as you are capable of, G-C.
Congratulations.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 8:36 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2012 at 8:40 pm by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Assuming free will exists,which I do not assume,at least to the extent we like to think. My position is that IF there is such a thing as free will,it is extremely limited. My perception is that most of the apparent decisions we make are predetermined by instinct,habit, previous experience and genetics.
Accepting free will in humans as a given for the sake of argument:
If free includes problem solving,then some other animals can be said to have free will to some degree. Dolphins,some apes and recently some birds,such as rooks have been observed solving complex problems. EG rooks have been observed making a tool to make a tool. I have actually seen a piping shrike (magpie) with a broken beak use a twig to dig for worms.
Some animals are also self aware.EG dolphins and some apes can recognise their image in a mirror as themselves. Virtually no other animals have that ability,as far as I'm aware.
However,I think behaviour such as protecting the young,even compassion to one's own are instinctive behaviours. That a dog's loyalty is the instinctive behaviour of a pack animal to its perceived pack.
I have no time for apologist special pleading and self-serving definitions,which try to make humans extraordinary. We are not extraordinary,we are merely animals with delusion of grandeur as far as I can see so far.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 10:19 pm
(February 9, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: Of course animals have free will. Just not the cerebral capacity to exploit that free will to the extent that we humans can.
I may have to revise that 'cerebral capacity' part after having watched the BBC's 2-part series "Super Smart Animals" (381MB).
The presenter didn't hurt either.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 9, 2012 at 11:16 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2012 at 11:29 pm by Godscreated.)
(February 9, 2012 at 8:36 pm)padraic Wrote: Assuming free will exists,which I do not assume,at least to the extent we like to think. My position is that IF there is such a thing as free will,it is extremely limited. My perception is that most of the apparent decisions we make are predetermined by instinct,habit, previous experience and genetics.
Accepting free will in humans as a given for the sake of argument:
If free includes problem solving,then some other animals can be said to have free will to some degree. Dolphins,some apes and recently some birds,such as rooks have been observed solving complex problems. EG rooks have been observed making a tool to make a tool. I have actually seen a piping shrike (magpie) with a broken beak use a twig to dig for worms.
Some animals are also self aware.EG dolphins and some apes can recognise their image in a mirror as themselves. Virtually no other animals have that ability,as far as I'm aware.
However,I think behaviour such as protecting the young,even compassion to one's own are instinctive behaviours. That a dog's loyalty is the instinctive behaviour of a pack animal to its perceived pack.
I have no time for apologist special pleading and self-serving definitions,which try to make humans extraordinary. We are not extraordinary,we are merely animals with delusion of grandeur as far as I can see so far.
Dogs can recognize themselves.
(February 9, 2012 at 6:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: .
Our instinct is to not put our hands in the fire (that is, once we've felt it (soft fascination)). You've never seen an animal put itself in harms way to defend it's fellows, "overriding an instinct"? Do you want me to bury you in youtube links or can you save us both the time and trouble and acknowledge that this is not a uniquely human action? Is it not instinctual to protect members of your group, or members of your species from other species or members of other groups (or even your own?)
Yes, other animals will work hard at defending their young and those that belong to a pack, troop, herd and ect., but not those they do not know as part of their group, where humans will defend a stranger. Just like chimps, wolves will kill or accept a strange wolf, either way they see it as protecting the pack.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 10, 2012 at 2:33 am
(This post was last modified: February 10, 2012 at 2:34 am by AthiestAtheist.)
(February 9, 2012 at 5:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: I train dogs to obey certain commands, yet at times they will refuse to do so, this is a deliberate choice. As for what the reasons, I'm not always sure, I do not see it as freewill.
Well, there's yer problem... Why?!?
"Sisters, you know only the north; I have traveled in the south lands. There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did--not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan't feel. That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if a war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other, no matter what strange allies we find ourselves bound to."
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 10, 2012 at 2:37 am
(This post was last modified: February 10, 2012 at 2:50 am by The Grand Nudger.)
So dogs wouldn't be in the habit of "adopting" orphaned cats, ducks, squirrels, or tigers would they GC? It couldn't possibly be that many human beings see other human beings as members of the pack, troop, herd, etc either, could it? You never answered my question about Orangs btw, whether or not they were making moral or instinctual choices with regards to rape. I'm going to go ahead and go forward anyway. If they are making an instinctual choice, then why is rape in humans not an instinctual choice Or is it? If it is, does this mean that rape is a duty free action, that it won't land me in trouble with the big guy, since I'm not exercising my "free will". For me to leverage my "free will" that would require a moral choice, if I understand you correctly)? If they are making a moral choice, then wouldn't that qualify them for "free will"? If they have such a will, and make a moral choice such as this, are they bound by the laws we are supposedly bound by? If not why not? If so, should I expect to see Orangutans in hell when I arrive?
(That last question is really the only one that interests me, because the rest of your statements and qualifiers were complete horseshit and I don't actually care.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 10, 2012 at 3:41 am
(This post was last modified: February 10, 2012 at 3:41 am by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Quote:Dogs can recognize themselves.
Available evidence shows that neither dogs nor cats can pass 'the mirror test',and are not self aware.
Quote:Animals that have passed the mirror test include:
Humans
All of the other great apes,
three kinds of Gibbons
Bonobos[5]
Chimpanzees[5][6]
Orangutans[7]
Gorillas
Bottlenose dolphins[8]
Orcas[9]
Elephants[10]
European Magpies[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 10, 2012 at 3:55 am
(February 9, 2012 at 6:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:Chimps that ignore their instincts and do something senseless are probably wired wrong and would be a determent to themselves and their troop. Thus through natural selection this bad wiring would or should be eliminated.
Probably as good an example of Natural Selection as you are capable of, G-C.
Congratulations.
Close but no cigar, natural selection doesn't necessarily mean that the 'wiring' should work, we still have appendixes and some species have eyes that they no longer use. We also still have right wing Republican Christian fascists in America, and their wiring is all over the shop.
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RE: Do animals have free Will?
February 10, 2012 at 5:50 am
(February 9, 2012 at 10:19 pm)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: (February 9, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Rokcet Scientist Wrote:
I may have to revise that 'cerebral capacity' part after having watched the BBC's 2-part series "Super Smart Animals" (381MB).
The presenter didn't hurt either.
+1 for this programme - Excellent 2 parter and very relevant to this thread.
The Bonobo at the end of part 2 was just incredible, holding conversations using the pictogram - She understood concepts of past, present and future, and had a cheeky sense of humor.
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