This is going to be a quick post (what? ME? QUICK?! AND CONCISE?!! Truly I MUST be tired...), but...

Has anyone ever found themselves in the middle of a debate with a religious individual and almost instantly found themselves feeling...well...GUILTY? I find this happens all the damn time. I have all these wonderful points that could pulp their beliefs and turn them into sobbing wrecks, clutching at the tattered remains of their faith, but...I feel guilty because...this'll sound condescending... But I honestly lose my nerve, not because I fear defeat...but because I fear total victory. I feel guilty. GUILTY. As I thought about it, it's the exact same guilt I might feel if I were to get into a heated argument about the theory of relativity with a retard. I feel guilty arguing with such people because I realize they're such primitive-minded people that to corner them on every single point with rationality would be like getting into an ass-kicking contest with a one-legged man.

That and it also doesn't help that they are exceedingly exasperating when they more-often-than-not refuse to argue within the bounds of reason...

No, can't say that has ever happened.

That sounds callous, but what you're doing is promoting education, and free thought rather than atheism itself.
Frankly I don't care if my argument leads them to atheism, agnosticism, or even transfers their belief to something else like buddhism.

You should never be trying to convert them to YOUR way of thinking, merely trying to convert them to THINKING.

The fact is, you are fighting ignorance, and a refusal to learn about this amazing universe and existence.
It is a fairly airtight argument that education is the more foolproof way for the promotion and survival of our race, for the consideration of moral values instead of adherence to stone age rules, flexibility and adjusting to the unassailable advance of technology.

While your description is condescending, comparing them to be primitive, you have to realise that they are functionally identical to yourself. Its a joke that creationists appear unevolved themselves, but we know its not true.

The moral golden rule, One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself which is repeated through the ages and through most moral codes applies.

If you are living a lie, would you want somebody to play nice and not point out the errors in your position?

The abrahamic religions oddly enough, claim the golden rule, but are among the most famous groups for breaching it.

(March 16, 2012 at 6:52 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: No, can't say that has ever happened.

That sounds callous, but what you're doing is promoting education, and free thought rather than atheism itself.
Frankly I don't care if my argument leads them to atheism, agnosticism, or even transfers their belief to something else like buddhism.

You should never be trying to convert them to YOUR way of thinking, merely trying to convert them to THINKING.

The fact is, you are fighting ignorance, and a refusal to learn about this amazing universe and existence.
It is a fairly airtight argument that education is the more foolproof way for the promotion and survival of our race, for the consideration of moral values instead of adherence to stone age rules, flexibility and adjusting to the unassailable advance of technology.

While your description is condescending, comparing them to be primitive, you have to realise that they are functionally identical to yourself. Its a joke that creationists appear unevolved themselves, but we know its not true.

The moral golden rule, One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself which is repeated through the ages and through most moral codes applies.

If you are living a lie, would you want somebody to play nice and not point out the errors in your position?

The abrahamic religions oddly enough, claim the golden rule, but are among the most famous groups for breaching it.

Hm! I hadn't really thought of it in the context of promoting the simple trade of free-thought. I get caught up in the antitheism aspect a little too easily. I'm a bit TOO enthusiastic at times.

Ah well. It's only been like two or three years since I actively began rejecting Christianity, and less than a year since I started the antitheistic approach.

I've had some success with speaking to my room-mate about the contradictions of the bible. Doing it gently seems to be working. I'm starting with Genesis's shortcomings, and I'll point the rest out in due time. I even explained the wonders of the universe and its existence, and the process of its creation. Damn near blew his mind. XD

Yeah, I feel guilty sometimes. Not so much when I argue with friends or acquaintences, but when the topic comes up around family, I feel quite bad afterwords. . .probably because most of my family isn't very devout, and they typically make concessions/ask questions as opposed to just reiterating random, annoying crap.

Sometimes I begin to feel the stirrings of what might one day develop into guilt, but then I remember that it's their own gods fault for treating them like ignorant children and failing to provide a factually accurate account of anything that it had done, or it's reasons for doing so, instead perpetuating myths and superstition in place of intelligent discourse.

I don't feel guilty at all, and believe that it's my religious family who should feel guilty for brainwashing me from birth to believe that nonsense instead of giving the the chance to develop my own ideas about reality and religion. Not only that, few Christians give atheism any respect, so I don't feel guilty one bit in defending my beliefs. And like NMF said, there's no need to feel guilty for promoting education and open thought. If religion could stand up to critical scrutiny, then there's no need to feel guilty over raising legitimate questions about it. If religion gets torn down in the process of debating it, then it should never have stood in the first place.

You have to remember that they aren't actually people. They don't have feelings.

(March 16, 2012 at 6:41 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: This is going to be a quick post (what? ME? QUICK?! AND CONCISE?!! Truly I MUST be tired...), but...

Has anyone ever found themselves in the middle of a debate with a religious individual and almost instantly found themselves feeling...well...GUILTY? I find this happens all the damn time. I have all these wonderful points that could pulp their beliefs and turn them into sobbing wrecks, clutching at the tattered remains of their faith, but...I feel guilty because...this'll sound condescending... But I honestly lose my nerve, not because I fear defeat...but because I fear total victory. I feel guilty. GUILTY. As I thought about it, it's the exact same guilt I might feel if I were to get into a heated argument about the theory of relativity with a retard. I feel guilty arguing with such people because I realize they're such primitive-minded people that to corner them on every single point with rationality would be like getting into an ass-kicking contest with a one-legged man.

That and it also doesn't help that they are exceedingly exasperating when they more-often-than-not refuse to argue within the bounds of reason...

I think it's like a black belt that refuses to fight with anything but white belts. There are all kinds of religious people, some smart, some dumb. It sounds to me like you're not engaging the smart ones. Maybe you should try moving up in class and see how the "ass-kicking contest" goes.

As I tell my stepdaughter (who is a christoholic) as long as it is admitted that their belief is based on faith and not any type of science, then I have no problem. It is when they try to promote their crap by saying they have scientific evidence that their is a problem. Then I have no problem debating them but on faith, there is no reason to debate since as my signature says, they are out of reach of rational conviction nor do they deserve a rational argument. Science has nothing to do with their god beliefs so why not correct them and why feel guilty about it?

edit: She does admit her belief is faith based and she freely admits she can show no evidence.

Happy St Podraig Day!! And a Joyous Equinox!!