Since Watcher is probably right and this is a troll I will continue posting.

This is for all you lurkers out there are who reading this post but will probably not say anything.

Statements such as "We exist and that DEMANDS an explanation" do not have any explanatory power. Our existence demands nothing of the sort. Now you could say "Our existence MAKES US WANT an explanation" but simply because you desire something doesn't mean you are going to get it.

--->>>STRONG<<<--- Atheism claims to have knowledge of there being no gods. Due to this the Strong Atheist has made a positive claim and therefore must give proof. However in the Strong Atheist's defense many people of all religions claim to know things such as fairies etc don't exist but are not required to shoulder any proof other than saying "Prove to me it is there?"

However anyone other than a strong atheist such as an Agnostic Atheist etc does not claim to know for certain whether or not such a thing as deity exists. The claim an Agnostic Atheist would make is that they have not seen any reliable evidence for deities existence. The Agnostic Atheist therefore can provide reasons as to why the evidence that is presented is not seen as evidence to them.

I will save you a lot of time STRONG POSITIVE ATHEISM cannot prove 100% beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is no such thing as deity. >>>NOTICE<<< That is not necessarily referring to SPECIFIC deities such as the CHRISTIAN GOD. It is possible that there is actually evidence against certain kinds of gods existing if those gods are defined in certain ways.

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For example: IF there was a deity that was stated to heal all sickness upon hearing the prayers of the believer the deities claim could be tested. If someone prayed and was not healed of their sickness then the deity did not perform the action and is either a liar or does not exist.

Caveat: I am not suggesting this is the Christian God I am simply making a point with some made up form of deity.
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So again, there may be SOME form of deity out there. Many people feel like this is an atheist admitting defeat and will run out and claim victory. This is very annoying however and a COMPLETE LIE. It is a common thing for people to take people's statements and inflate them to say whatever the person wants them to say.

For example there was someone who listened to Dawkin's claim something and has run around saying "DAWKIN'S IS NOT REALLY AN ATHEIST!". However if you actually READ WHAT DAWKINS said not people's "modified and improved version" you will find out that he was making a point about probabilities. He was stating it was not possible for him to know 100% but rather 99% and compared his agnosticism to God to his agnosticism towards fairies. I said that because I am trying to head off someone claiming that atheists are conceding something by saying this.

It is really annoying when intellectual honesty is manipulated into something to make someone appear dishonest. Jireh, you have your answer about STRONG POSITIVE ATHEISM. There is no 100% proof that there is no such thing as a deity. However if you want to start discussing the probability of YAHWEH/JEHOVAH I.E. the Christian God's existence as defined by the Bible we can discuss things a little bit more directly.

For all of you lurkers out there please be very careful when reading threads like this. Don't ever take anyone's answer on here for granted and continue to read/research for yourself.

I, as a strong atheist, don't have much of an interest in "proving" anything about a god. It isn't an issue of philosophy, this is simply the place where believers have retreated to in an attempt to salvage their bullshit. A philosophical argument has little value beyond the argument if we cannot assign a measure of truth or value to it's assertions. Philosophical arguments about god are a wonderful excersize in craft, but they must be brought into the world beyond argument if we are to discuss these things on the terms that believers would lay claim to. Gods are a product of evidentiary claims. Gods do or did this or that, they cause this or that, they provide this or that service. They exist here, in the world beyond argumentation, but never in the sense that believers would claim. All we know about gods is completely material. Every claim made, every story told. This is the body of knowledge available. In each and every case we see gods used as a placeholder for some human urge, desire, thought, curiosity. There is nothing else to it. I see no need to invoke anything beyond this.

Show me a god, be specific, and I will provide anyone with material evidence, not philosophical arguments, there is no lack of it. None of it leads to "existence". "But what about the nameless, faceless, claimless gods". What god might that be? Why are we using the word god for this again?

(April 21, 2012 at 5:13 pm)Jireh Wrote: Please present positive arguments why you think atheism is true

No bible bashing etc...... which would be a negative argument.

But that's sort of a double negative; atheism is a negative viewpoint, it isn't in of itself "true".

That's not fair, atheism is a negative position. You can't defend a negative position with positive arguments. That just doesn't work logically. You aim to have a discussion where you completely disarm your opposition that is completely pointless.

But since you asked... Atheism is true because it has not been proven that God exists.

Q.E.D.

(April 22, 2012 at 11:30 am)Jireh Wrote: What is your standard of extraordinary ?

radio waves, electromagnetism, and light leave no " hard evidence ", but they exist..........

None of these things are "extraordinary." They are normally happening events of nature. There is PLENTY of evidence all over the place you can EASILY use to see. The relevancy of these things to god is like comparing an apple to a BMW. There are no similarities whatsoever and your pitiful attempt to throw up a smokescreen to deviate from the statement I made is telling indeed.

(April 22, 2012 at 11:30 am)Jireh Wrote: have you read what this thread is about ? i know the route you wish is easy and confortable for you, thats why you suggest it. But to make a case for strong atheism and naturalism, you need to be able to present positive reasons, that stand of its own.

I AM making a case by asking you to prove your claim that god is real. You aren't. And THAT, above all else, is the ultimate case for atheism being true; the fact that there IS no evidence of any kind. Anything you say, science explains easily. What little there is for god to fill are little tiny gaps. Nothing more.

THAT. THAT is why atheism is fact, and why faith is...faith.

Atheism means to lack belief in gods. I lack belief in gods. Therefore I am an atheist. My atheism is true.

The reason the question in the OP is so pointless is because atheism simply means - without theism. That's what the 'A' is for.

Theism - Belief in god.

A-theism - Without belief in god.

Can't really make it any simpler for ya. You either fail to grasp this because you are extremely stupid or just can't stand the fact that it simply means - without belief.

Asking for facts or evidence or positive arguments for a lack of belief is completely pointless.
Also as a note for theists, the ism bit comes from the word theism. The A means without. It stems from Greek, theos and atheos. Or if you will... θεϊστής and αθεϊστής.

(April 22, 2012 at 6:42 am)Jireh Wrote: what objective responsability do you have, if God does not exist ?

Why would I need it? All each of us needs is personal responsibility ... and millions of non-believers have proven that they have it in spades.

(April 22, 2012 at 6:42 am)Jireh Wrote: If God does not exist, good and evil cannot exist.

Says who? You? "Good and Evil" are just words we use to define actions we like and/or don't like. We assign rape and murder the word Evil because we do not want these things done to us. Your god has nothing to do with the actions of man. Long before your silly religion existed and your sadistic god had been dreamed up, the human race was well aware of good and evil and the consequences that come with negative actions.

(April 22, 2012 at 6:42 am)Jireh Wrote: Everything is relative, and you set your morals, according to your preferences. There is nobody that can say, you are wrong and right. If Hitler thought, he was right in doing, what he did, who can tell him, that is not true, he was wrong ?

Ok now pay attention, cause this is the big one that you people are always missing out on.
You would totally have a valid point about our morals being useless because they are subjective if it weren't for one massive glaring thing ...
The morals of Christians are absolutely no better than anyone elses ... making your whole point mute. When your priests stop molesting children, when your preachers stop getting arrested for embezzlement, when your missionaries stop raping the natives, when your parishioners stop cheating on their wives, beating their kids, and stealing from their neighbors you can talk to me about the problems with our subjective morality. Telling the world that we should fear our own moral code when there is no god telling us what right and wrong is - is just insulting. Especially when you consider the atrocities that come from the hands of Christians everywhere!

And by the way Hitler WAS a Christian and what good did his god-given "objective" morals do the world?? Well, if you're anti-Semitic, than Hitler did a great good didn't he? But yeah, for the rest of us, your god-given morals didn't do a damn thing! None!

This button, issued to thousands of German soldiers' uniforms
is translated, God With Us. Until you can figure out how to get Christians to actually HAVE some universal morality I suggest you STFU about your "objective morality."
Or at least go read a news report or a god damn history book!

Godwinned, or godwon?

Oi, stop nicking my jokes!!!!!!!!!!

(April 22, 2012 at 9:40 am)Watchman Wrote: Originality isn’t Angelo’s forte.

how nice to see you here, Watchman. And - thanks for you introductory post.
How about you show your originality - and actually answer the issue of this topic ?

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(April 22, 2012 at 10:23 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Evolution is scientific fact. It has nothing to do with faith.

If macro evolution is a scientific fact, please present the conclusive proof.