(May 12, 2012 at 6:46 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: This is like the oldest argument against the existence of God. It's mostly a futile argument I'm afraid because theists think God existed eternally outside of time where cause and effect are meaningless.

It always bakes my noodle to consider how an Eternal God, whom is infinite, chose to create a universe at a finite point (NOW there is universe).

What was he doing for infinity before he decided NOW was the time to do it... what changed that made God decide "now" was a good time within infinity. In order to change his mind, that requires a change of some sort, but by definition, God cannot change, as it would render previous incarnations less perfect, or wrong.

When you stop and think about this "outside of universe and eternal" concept, it melts your brain from a logical standpoint.

Quote:theists think God existed eternally outside of time where cause and effect are meaningless.

If god is not bound by time and so devoid of it like the centre of a black hole, then god could not have caused the universe for he does not have the time to create the universe in.
Also with the universe and all it's mass pressed down to smaller than a sub particle would have immense gravitational pull, like that of a black hole and so time itself must stop. So there is no time for god to create the universe in. The universe can pop into existence without a cause and without violating the known laws of nature. The whole god idea has been made completely redundant.

It seems like a lot of people have trouble comprehending that there is no such thing as "before the universe". There is, and has always been, everything. The observable expansion of the universe (everything) suggests that everything once occupied a single point... and 'everything' includes time. By definition, there can be no before. Everything is everything. There can be no nothing.

(May 19, 2012 at 8:37 am)Paul the Human Wrote: It seems like a lot of people have trouble comprehending that there is no such thing as "before the universe". There is, and has always been, everything.

Indeed, its akin to asking "At what point did existence come into existence?" which is a meaningless question. The universe (matter and energy) has always existed in some shape or form. The cosmos thwarts our conventional understanding and stone-age notions of causality.

Theists remain theists because they can't get it through their thick craniums that's its scientifically impossible for a "creator god", as they define it, to exist, because it violates basic physics. Only those smart enough to realise that shit's not going to fly, yet cannot let go of their comfort-blanket that is the deity concept, become pantheists and/or pandeists.

(May 12, 2012 at 2:56 pm)Gooders1002 Wrote: If God is real then who created god? and there no possible why he could have always existed.

Can we say the same about the universe then?

Well to play devil's advocate, while I am an atheist, the same argument can be used against any proposal to how the universe started. You can keep going back to the beginning over and over and asking “Well how did that get there then, huh?”

(May 19, 2012 at 10:29 am)WhatIfGodWasJustAMyth Wrote: Well to play devil's advocate, while I am an atheist, the same argument can be used against any proposal to how the universe started. You can keep going back to the beginning over and over and asking “Well how did that get there then, huh?”

It's a meaningless question. There is no... there cannot be.... before existence. By definition, nonexistence cannot exist. There was never any need for "creation".

Does it not seem incredibly convenient to everyone present that God just happens to exist OUTSIDE of that which we know exists, such as time and the universe?

(May 19, 2012 at 10:29 am)WhatIfGodWasJustAMyth Wrote: Well to play devil's advocate, while I am an atheist, the same argument can be used against any proposal to how the universe started. You can keep going back to the beginning over and over and asking “Well how did that get there then, huh?”

You do realize that that is what we would be doing for any proposal, god or otherwise. The problem here is the fallacious assumption that everything has a cause and therefore the universe must have a cause as well. The principle of causality applies only within the context of space and time, which, as we are discovering, co-exist with the universe itself. The question of "what started the universe" is sensible only if you show that space and time can exist independently of it.

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(May 19, 2012 at 10:54 am)liam Wrote: Does it not seem incredibly convenient to everyone present that God just happens to exist OUTSIDE of that which we know exists, such as time and the universe?

Not at all. Its extremely inconvenient for them that science has left their god no other place to hide. Earlier he used to sit just above the clouds.

(May 19, 2012 at 9:22 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(May 12, 2012 at 2:56 pm)Gooders1002 Wrote: If God is real then who created god? and there no possible why he could have always existed.

Can we say the same about the universe then?

No because that would hurt their logic. Though there are some rather interesting scientific theories that aim to propose what could have been before this current universe....

(May 19, 2012 at 10:37 am)Paul the Human Wrote:

(May 19, 2012 at 10:29 am)WhatIfGodWasJustAMyth Wrote: Well to play devil's advocate, while I am an atheist, the same argument can be used against any proposal to how the universe started. You can keep going back to the beginning over and over and asking “Well how did that get there then, huh?”

It's a meaningless question. There is no... there cannot be.... before existence. By definition, nonexistence cannot exist. There was never any need for "creation".

The static universe theory has not been accepted for decades.