EvidenceVsFaith says that there is no choice, belief is if you're convinced of something. I say this is true, but it is still a choice. Yes you rationalise your worldview and have to follow your own logic, there is no real choice, but in the real world, this is what we call choice.

EvF, I think, thinks that belief is unchangeable. Rather like believing in the nose on your face, you cannot then convince yourself that your nose isn't there. We must either already believe in God all along or not, is the logical presumption I assume.

Essentially, Evie denies the possibility of a person changing their mind to become a Christian _or_ changing their mind and becoming an atheist.

Please correct me if I'm wrong Evie.

And of course, even though this thread is intended to keep our thread spamming activities in check, anyone is welcome to join in.

Belief in something is not a choice ... belief is the result of a rationalisation process (horribly twisted in theists I know) that brings that person to a particular POV.

I do not believe in a god. I ceased to believe because of the lack of available evidence and that the very idea of a creator god is irrational. The choice I made was to view the universe from a rational perspective and it is that that led me to disbelieve in all forms of deity. I did not choose that stance nor could I choose to believe again. I could no more choose to believe in a god than I could switch my ability to think off.

Kyu

Kyu Wrote:I did not choose that stance nor could I choose to believe again. I could no more choose to believe in a god than I could switch my ability to think off.

How could anyone say that ...and then also say they had an open mind? I don't understand it. That's just an incredibly prejudicial POV.

Quote:Belief in something is not a choice ... belief is the result of a rationalisation process (horribly twisted in theists I know) that brings that person to a particular POV.

Not sure that's correct. Most people I know received their religious beliefs as very young children, well under 'the age of reason'. As children we believe implicitly what our parents tell us,about the world,god,other people and ourselves.

We do not use reason to form our basic world view,attitudes and beliefs.We at least try to use reason and rational though to maintain or modify our views and to justify our behaviour.We seldom succeed 100%.

My observation is that the commonly held view that theists are somehow less rational [as a group] than atheists,is a fiction invented by insecure atheists. I've seen no evidence to support such a view.

However,as I've said before,my atheism is not a choice,but an inescapable conclusion reached after many years trying to avoid that conclusion.Perhaps that's why I'm often so contemptuous of the theists who infest atheist forums;their apologist position is old tired and boring.

(August 31, 2009 at 4:14 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

Kyu Wrote:I did not choose that stance nor could I choose to believe again. I could no more choose to believe in a god than I could switch my ability to think off.

How could anyone say that ...and then also say they had an open mind? I don't understand it. That's just an incredibly prejudicial POV.

Contrary to popular opinion, being open-minded is not about treating every silly point of view as if it were the equal of a stance based on reason nor is it about believing everything one hears nor even about giving every fantasy world someone claims to have experienced the same credibility as reality.

In fact being open-minded is about:

• Establishing exactly what claim is being made, what phenomenon is being tested or evaluated.
  
• Establishing all possible explanations to account for the phenomenon and, if possible ...
  
• Setting up and executing a series of strictly controlled tests or observations designed to systematically and rationally eliminate the wrong possibilities and establish which accounts for the phenomenon in question.

To quote Spock ("Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country"), "An ancestor of mine maintained that when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Open-mindedness requires a reasoned and rational approach, if possible it requires observation, evidence, hypothesis, verification, tentativeness, falsifiability & it requires logic ... in short, true open-mindedness requires science or at least a similar rational approach. Furthermore open-mindedness is fairly evidently necessary to investigate the universe & world in which we exist.

I have often been accused of not being open-minded indeed some have accused me of being a fundamentalist atheist because they imply I am "unwilling to expand my borders" when in fact what they dislike is that I am not able to suspend my objectivity enough to accept a pile of foetid dingo's kidneys as a valid hypothesis. However those people are wrong ... science is open-minded, science is empirical, I am an adherent of science and an atheist because of it and I try my very best to be open minded like science.

However, that someone's mind is open, does not give anyone else the right to pour their crap into it! Nor does it give others the unchallengeable prerogative to claim someone is not "open-minded" because they are not prepared to tolerate fantasy views touted as fact nor even their views based on logic or reason (unless they really are) ... I would argue that such rational individuals, like science, are open-minded in the most objective sense!

As Dawkin's said, "There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out!"

I may well end up believing in your god or some other but what it won't be is a choice! If you want to let your brains to fall out then be my guest!

(August 31, 2009 at 4:21 am)padraic Wrote: My observation is that the commonly held view that theists are somehow less rational [as a group] than atheists,is a fiction invented by insecure atheists. I've seen no evidence to support such a view.

I don't agree because to my mind a belief in a god is a step away from reason so whilst everything else may be working tickety boo there's something gone wrong somewhere ... it's also my view that there is a positive correlation between education and atheism. Several have claimed there is data supporting that but, despite asking, I've never seen any ... nevertheless, based on personal experience I believe that is true though in the absence of hard evidence that's all it is, a view.

But ultimately, as Shermer says, smart people defend stupid ideas cleverly.

Kyu

In order to believe something you have to be convinced it's true. Regardless of what your standards of evidence are, you have to be convinced.

I could not possibly chose to believe in God, I'd need to be convinced. I did believe in God when I was younger, I didn't chose atheism. The simple fact is that the more I looked into God and religion, the less I was convinced until I realized I no longer believed. It wasn't a choice, but a process I went through. In other threads I've stated what it would take to convince me.

For other people who believe in God, they have been convinced in their own way. Maybe they believe what they were taught as a child unquestioningly, or maybe they had an experience that convinced them or reaffirmed their faith. Either way, they don't chose to believe either. They honestly are convinced there is a God, for whatever reason that may be.

No fr0d0, I never said that atheists or theists never change their minds, and that they stay in one stance forever...that would be ridiculous.

I'm telling you that it's not a matter of choice - because you couldn't exactly compare it for instance...to choosing a flavour of crisps or a drink to have...it's not like "Hmm, I think I'll believe THIS today"...and it's not like a long term process either ..where 2 years later you think "Yep...I think I'll believe in God/not believe in God anymore afterall!


... I'ts not voluntrary. Give me the evidence that belief is some fucking kind of preference somehow! Lol.

You're either convinced or you're not...it's not voluntrary at all, as far as I'm concerned...it's involuntrary.

It's not just that I don't believe in free will, but you couldn't compare it with anything voluntrary like being 'willing' to choose what to have to eat... "ooh, I think I'll have pasta today"!! This sorta thing is not comparable with "You know what...it's been 10 years of atheism and...I think I'll believe in God after all!" - it's not like that. Belief is not a matter of policy, it's not a choice.

EvF

I never choose to be an atheist. I simply realised that I don't believe in god. Most of my life the thought of god was never in my mind. Everytime I hear about it, I'd walk off and ignore it. It was only until I knew about the word "atheist" and it's meaning that I knew I was an atheist. I didn't choose, I simply do not believe in a god or gods. The god claim was too far fetched and arrogant for me to believe it.

I couldn't choose to believe in God anymore than I could choose to believe the world is flat. Sure, I could say I believed, go to church, whatever, but that wouldn't change the fact that I didn't (if I didn't).

It might be a decision, but it is not a conscious decision of "choice" in the same sense of how choosing one item of clothing over another is a choice. You listen to the arguments presented, and if they make sense you believe. Different people have different senses of what is "rational". To the Christian, the arguments for God are rational, and they believe them; to the atheist, they aren't, and they disbelieve them.

Saying people choose to believe is like saying people "choose" their favourite colour. People don't choose their favourite colour; they look at the colours and the one that they like the most is their favourite. Their preference may change over time, but I couldn't choose to like pink more than I like blue.

That 'spock ancestor' quote was actually a Sherlock Holmes quote.

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Of course it is not a choice, since when has indoctrination ever been a choice? And children are subjected to a great deal of preaching and lying from adults they trust, and therefore trust what they are told.

How is there choice in that? There might be times when religion is a choice (adult conversion possibly), but it is a choice made without rationality, without sentience. The religious can only be made so by two methods: method a: indoctrination as a child. Method b: impulsively deciding without thinking rationally (indoctrination usually occurs too).

How can theists possibly be as rational as atheists? One group is indoctrinated from a young age, being told constantly to not think, or to think in an illogical manner. The other group is stupid enough to convert to illogical belief as an adult.

Sure, they might be rational people on the inside... but that rational person is buried deep within their outer shell of ignorance and deception.