Personally, I enjoy offending theists. And they get offended so easily.

To paraphrase the bard...."stupidity should be made of sterner stuff!"

In your shoes I think I would of said that "I am open to the concept that a sentient catalyst unrelated to our theology created all of this."
Only problem is that I don't know if you consider it simply one of many theories or a reality which you base your thinking and actions on.
The difference is that if you consider it a theory that you'd like to be true then that would make you indistingishable from an optimistic atheist.
If you consider it a reality but have not a shred of evidence to back up that assertion then unfortunately belief does undeniably come into it.
Just sayin'.

(May 31, 2012 at 2:22 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: In your shoes I think I would of said that "I am open to the concept that a sentient catalyst unrelated to our theology created all of this."
Only problem is that I don't know if you consider it simply one of many theories or a reality which you base your thinking and actions on.
The difference is that if you consider it a theory that you'd like to be true then that would make you indistingishable from an optimistic atheist.
If you consider it a reality but have not a shred of evidence to back up that assertion then unfortunately belief does undeniably come into it.
Just sayin'.

Fair enough.

To answer your question -

I have in the past and probably will in the future admit to believing in god (see MY definition of god), despite the fact that it makes me cringe due to my on views on the loathsomeness of religion. The issue of a god's existence and all things of a spiritual nature are complex in my own head. They have evolved over three decades to become what they are today. To unmake that would be fantastic, but we are all products of our childhood. Anyone who has spent any time reading my posts knows that I don't try to sell deities, my own or any other. Like any other blithering idiot, I have no proof, but unlike the other blithering idiots - I don't care. I just don't want to be saddled with the word "believe" ... despite the fact that it may just be my only option.

(May 31, 2012 at 3:23 pm)Cinjin Wrote:

(May 31, 2012 at 2:22 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: In your shoes I think I would of said that "I am open to the concept that a sentient catalyst unrelated to our theology created all of this."
Only problem is that I don't know if you consider it simply one of many theories or a reality which you base your thinking and actions on.
The difference is that if you consider it a theory that you'd like to be true then that would make you indistingishable from an optimistic atheist.
If you consider it a reality but have not a shred of evidence to back up that assertion then unfortunately belief does undeniably come into it.
Just sayin'.

Fair enough.

To answer your question -

I have in the past and probably will in the future admit to believing in god (see MY definition of god), despite the fact that it makes me cringe due to my on views on the loathsomeness of religion. The issue of a god's existence and all things of a spiritual nature are complex in my own head. They have evolved over three decades to become what they are today. To unmake that would be fantastic, but we are all products of our childhood. Anyone who has spent any time reading my posts knows that I don't try to sell deities, my own or any other. Like any other blithering idiot, I have no proof, but unlike the other blithering idiots - I don't care. I just don't want to be saddled with the word "believe" ... despite the fact that it may just be my only option.

Thats fair enough. I noticed you mentioned we are all products of our childhood. Really don't want to be "that guy" cause you seem a cool and logical guy but have you considered that may be the sole reason you don't just treat the concept of a creator like any other theory and on some level you're aware of that hence your distain for theists and the word belief?
Honestly? Its a complete shot in the dark, don't know anything about your childhood. Only know what my hunch is telling me, I'm probably wrong.
If you don't want to answer thats cool, its really none of my business.

English. Such a simplified language....it is much easier to define such a belief in other languages. Even if I try to translate the meaning, it would still sound odd in this language, but it is the difference between merely believing in something like the sky appears blue and believing into something like believing into the existence of God. One can believe in God in a passive form, but one can have an existential active belief in God.

(May 31, 2012 at 1:47 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Personally, I enjoy offending theists. And they get offended so easily.

To paraphrase the bard...."stupidity should be made of sterner stuff!"

Stupidity is indeed stern and immovable before any enlightenement. It is stupid people who have the same soft squishy consistency as turd.

(May 31, 2012 at 4:06 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(May 31, 2012 at 3:23 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Fair enough.

To answer your question -

I have in the past and probably will in the future admit to believing in god (see MY definition of god), despite the fact that it makes me cringe due to my on views on the loathsomeness of religion. The issue of a god's existence and all things of a spiritual nature are complex in my own head. They have evolved over three decades to become what they are today. To unmake that would be fantastic, but we are all products of our childhood. Anyone who has spent any time reading my posts knows that I don't try to sell deities, my own or any other. Like any other blithering idiot, I have no proof, but unlike the other blithering idiots - I don't care. I just don't want to be saddled with the word "believe" ... despite the fact that it may just be my only option.

Thats fair enough. I noticed you mentioned we are all products of our childhood. Really don't want to be "that guy" cause you seem a cool and logical guy but have you considered that may be the sole reason you don't just treat the concept of a creator like any other theory and on some level you're aware of that hence your distain for theists and the word belief?
Honestly? Its a complete shot in the dark, don't know anything about your childhood. Only know what my hunch is telling me, I'm probably wrong.
If you don't want to answer thats cool, its really none of my business.

Anything is possible. I'm trying to figure out how to answer questions for my son without putting bias in his head. It's difficult to say the least - it is even more difficult when you try to explain how you "believe" in something without actually believing in it.

What I'm saying is, I think the great majority of people associate belief with worship and if they don't associate it with worship, than they're like me and they still associate belief with ass-hatery. Regardless, for me it's lose-lose, but I spose it's always been that way.

If I could shake this monkey off my back and simply come to the conclusion that there is no god and never think about it again. I would. I've even tried, but the paths I take, the books I read, and the research I do always seems to lead me back to the same conclusion.

Which Is ...
Bible (all the "bibles" of mankind): No Way
fairy tales: Nope
Heaven: Nope
Hell: No, Ridiculous
Devil: No way
Afterlife: perhaps
Traditional god(s): Nonsense
Creator being god: Plausible

Do I believe?


*sigh* How can I say no ... and yet how can I say yes.

(May 31, 2012 at 5:58 pm)Cinjin Wrote:

(May 31, 2012 at 4:06 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Thats fair enough. I noticed you mentioned we are all products of our childhood. Really don't want to be "that guy" cause you seem a cool and logical guy but have you considered that may be the sole reason you don't just treat the concept of a creator like any other theory and on some level you're aware of that hence your distain for theists and the word belief?
Honestly? Its a complete shot in the dark, don't know anything about your childhood. Only know what my hunch is telling me, I'm probably wrong.
If you don't want to answer thats cool, its really none of my business.

Anything is possible. I'm trying to figure out how to answer questions for my son without putting bias in his head. It's difficult to say the least - it is even more difficult when you try to explain how you "believe" in something without actually believing in it.

What I'm saying is, I think the great majority of people associate belief with worship and if they don't associate it with worship, than they're like me and they still associate belief with ass-hatery. Regardless, for me it's lose-lose, but I spose it's always been that way.

If I could shake this monkey off my back and simply come to the conclusion that there is no god and never think about it again. I would. I've even tried, but the paths I take, the books I read, and the research I do always seems to lead me back to the same conclusion.

Which Is ...
Bible (all the "bibles" of mankind): No Way
fairy tales: Nope
Heaven: Nope
Hell: No, Ridiculous
Devil: No way
Afterlife: perhaps
Traditional god(s): Nonsense
Creator being god: Plausible

Do I believe?


*sigh* How can I say no ... and yet how can I say yes.

You could just say the only thing you can be certain of:
You don't know, none of us do. Belief isn't required to say that.