(June 1, 2012 at 6:43 pm)Brian37 Wrote: WHEN THE BRAIN DIES YOU DIE!

Yeah, but so what. Let's take that as a given. You die period. Okay. Now explain where sensations come from.

(June 1, 2012 at 7:10 pm)StatCrux Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 7:04 pm)Annik Wrote: It's more than, it's a self-aware being capable of abstract thought.

So you accept that we are more than a biological machine?

I don't. An advance biological machine is a good description of a human being. What's the problem with holding such a view (aside from free will)?

(June 1, 2012 at 7:10 pm)StatCrux Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 7:04 pm)Annik Wrote: It's more than, it's a self-aware being capable of abstract thought.

So you accept that we are more than a biological machine?

We are biological machines, but we are elevated in the fact that our brains have evolved. We have abstract thought and we are self aware.

HOLLY SHIT

No we are NOT anything more than nature.

Nature produces thinkers AND dumbasses LIKE YOU, and since evolution isn't about smarts or bran but whichever gets lucky by dumb luck or smarts, the point of reproduction is the final arbiter.

(June 1, 2012 at 7:07 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 7:03 pm)StatCrux Wrote: It can, that's an option, in fact it's more consistent with materialism. the problem is that it destroys freewill, we basically become automatons, Daniel Dennet agrees, saying freewill is illusory.

So the fuck what?

Another dodge!

You "Thoughts are not material"

ME "so the fuck what"

YOU HAVE NOT IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD STATED YOUR END GOAL

WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

GET TO THE FUCKING POINT

My point is that there is a non-material aspect to human nature, which you have agreed with. (thoughts are not physical) How then can purely material explanations of reality explain existence?

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(June 1, 2012 at 7:14 pm)Annik Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 7:10 pm)StatCrux Wrote: So you accept that we are more than a biological machine?

We are biological machines, but we are elevated in the fact that our brains have evolved. We have abstract thought and we are self aware.

I thought you said that we become biological machines upon brain death? That implies a change from one state upon brain death to another? now you say we are biological machines before brain death also, so what is the fundamental change? self awareness? does self awareness elevate us from a biological machine to what exactly?

(June 1, 2012 at 7:03 pm)StatCrux Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 6:52 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: I'm not really following some of the things being said in this thread.

I'll probably regret asking this question...why can't it be said that thoughts are physical?

It can, that's an option, in fact it's more consistent with materialism. the problem is that it destroys freewill, we basically become automatons, Daniel Dennet agrees, saying freewill is illusory.

I think you're misunderstanding or misstating Dennett's position. I would be surprised to hear him say what you just said, and I've been reading Dennett for over 20 years. (Though admittedly I haven't read him lately, and though it's been at least a decade since my last reading of Elbow Room, I doubt he's defected from the compatibilist position as you suggest. His essay from 2002's The Oxford Handbook Of Free Will is in the section on compatibilism, though I haven't confirmed its content. Freedom Evolves, 2003, is on my reading list; I persuaded one of my atheist groups to make it a book selection. )

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ETA: Speaking of which....

"Zawidzki reveals the systematic structure of my work as never before, and shows, with more patience than I have been able to muster, just how and why the parts fit together as they do. Zawidzki also usefully points out the weak spots in my position that need more work."

— Daniel Dennett on the back cover of the introductory work, by Tadeuz Zawidzki

Actually, Dennett has argued the point of free will with Sam Harris, and the cool thing is, they disagree without needing a goddidit.

(June 1, 2012 at 7:15 pm)StatCrux Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 7:14 pm)Annik Wrote: We are biological machines, but we are elevated in the fact that our brains have evolved. We have abstract thought and we are self aware.

I thought you said that we become biological machines upon brain death? That implies a change from one state upon death to another? now you say we are biological machines before death also, so what is the fundamental change? self awareness? does self awareness elevate us from a biological machine to what exactly?

We become lessened. You brain is everything you are. Your memories, your personality, your skills, your movement, everything. Your brain is you. Once brain death occurs, you lose all of the "human" parts. You are stepped down from an elevated, complex machine to a working sac of organs (assuming that your brain steam is intact to keep your autonomic functions... functioning. Lol). Although, we are elevated by abstract thought more than self-awareness. Our ability to think abstractly is what separates us from animals.

(June 1, 2012 at 7:32 pm)Annik Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 7:15 pm)StatCrux Wrote: I thought you said that we become biological machines upon brain death? That implies a change from one state upon death to another? now you say we are biological machines before death also, so what is the fundamental change? self awareness? does self awareness elevate us from a biological machine to what exactly?

We become lessened. You brain is everything you are. Your memories, your personality, your skills, your movement, everything. Your brain is you. Once brain death occurs, you lose all of the "human" parts. You are stepped down from an elevated, complex machine to a working sac of organs (assuming that your brain steam is intact to keep your autonomic functions... functioning. Lol). Although, we are elevated by abstract thought more than self-awareness. Our ability to think abstractly is what separates us from animals.

Essentially, you become like a computer that can turn on but can't load and start its operating system.

(June 1, 2012 at 7:34 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(June 1, 2012 at 7:32 pm)Annik Wrote: We become lessened. You brain is everything you are. Your memories, your personality, your skills, your movement, everything. Your brain is you. Once brain death occurs, you lose all of the "human" parts. You are stepped down from an elevated, complex machine to a working sac of organs (assuming that your brain steam is intact to keep your autonomic functions... functioning. Lol). Although, we are elevated by abstract thought more than self-awareness. Our ability to think abstractly is what separates us from animals.

Essentially, you become like a computer that can turn on but can't load and start its operating system.

Indeed. Any data in the hard drive would be wiped, the computer is useless.