I hadn't thought of that Adrian. Thank you for drawing my attention to it I love learning when i am wrong, i think it makes me a better person

Ok here's an answer in kind...

(September 1, 2009 at 6:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: You've talked shit since you came here!

Not, of course, like your 100% superstitious UTTER bullshit. Not as you make bare assertions about my rationalisations, but actual smelly stuff.

(September 1, 2009 at 6:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Nothing you believe (the belief itself) has ever had any consequence or impact on the human race even if the believers in that crap have! Belief in deity has no real value, does not advance the human race in any fashion and likely never will do. It's all bollocks, it will ALWAYS be bollocks until the day someone actually reveals some kind of testable, truly demonstrable evidence, and you belittle the human race by advancing it as any kind of truth ... some of us are trying to outgrow such childish nonsense!

You think dismissing everything not science makes you clever. What utter bullshit.

Tell us all your wild fairy story about science being the spooky answer to life, the universe and everything in the future again - fruit loops everywhere will surely gorge themselves on such purile nonsense. Maybe you could join a commune of equally spangly special people like yourself.

You assume that because I believe in God I also dismiss science... well read it and learn this time love-child - unlike you I DON'T DENY ANYTHING REAL.

(September 1, 2009 at 6:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: The meek may well inherit the Earth but the rest of us are trying to reach the stars!

...whilst obliterating those that choose to think.

Like I said above, and have said so many times yet you have some kind of crazy flower blindness to - I don't deny science.

(September 1, 2009 at 3:56 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 1, 2009 at 6:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Well, since you've apparently decided to ignore my post, I'll say it straight ...

Please don't be hurt Kyu, I was coming to you.

Hurt? Fuck off you disingenuous tosser!

Kyu

(September 1, 2009 at 4:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote: But we are talking about my belief. My authority is that I believe this stuff. Your authority is one of guessing what I think.

The fact you believe it is fucking irrelevant to the matter of whether you can choose it or not. The fact you are the one with the 'belief' doesn't give you any more authority over you having a choice in it...

Believing that a belief is a matter of choice, is not evidence that it is - that's circular bullshit reasoning.

Quote:But how would you know, having no belief in the way I have belief, and admitting that it is outside your understanding? You're dismissing fact without considering it.

'In the way you have belief' - what, redefining the whole definition of belief you mean? Or are you using belief as a synonym for 'having faith' basically, and not a matter of whether you actually believe or not? In which case - it's just a fucking pascal's wager...it's belief in belief, it's that you think belief is a 'good thing' so it's best to hold it...if you dont' literally actually have the belief, you just believe you do!!

Do you believe that God exists or not? In any form, and in any dimenson - and don't give me something like 'what do you mean by 'exist'? or 'God is beyond existence', or some shit to that effect.

Do you believe there is or isn't a God? If you do...you have reasons to believe that there is right? You are convinced by that...and how did you choose this? How is this....a preference?!

Quote:So you are talking about choosing between Buddhism & Christianity, for example? This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the specific choice to believe in the Christian God.

Aka, special pleading. You believe that belief in the specifically, Christian God is an exception...but your mere belief is not evidence for the truth of it, that's circular, so where's your actual evidence that the Christian God is any different? It's just fucking special pleading isn't it?!

Or... enlighten me!

Quote:Perhaps you consider other belief systems on your road to rationalizing a particular belief, I certainly did that, but this is subsidiary to the process rather than being the focus of rationalisation.

How on Earth is the Christian God any different? You believe it is...why? Is there actually a valid reason for you to believe its different, or is this per chance...just...bias? Just special pleading on your part?

Quote:You're talking about belief in the actually known again, and I've explained why this doesn't apply.

No, I'm talking about belief. I don't believe you can absolutely 'know' anything for sure, I'm an agnostic on all matters...but agnosticism/gnosticsm is not my issue here, I'm talking about what belief actually is about - whether you believe something is or is not!.

You are redefining belief to be different in respect to specifically the Christian God, that this 'belief' is somehow different, but where's your evidence? What the fuck is this redefinition? And how is it worthy of the label 'belief' if it's a different thing entirely???

Quote:We're not talking about the reasonableness of belief. I'm saying that because I have the belief I should know exactly what it is... more than you who neither acknowledges the possibility nor understands it.

But is it a belief? You believe you have a belief, but that's a belief that you have a belief, not the belief itself - that's just belief in belief.

Do you believe God exists or not? Because considering you appear to be completely redefining 'belief' in respect to specifically your God, the Christian God - then how is this redefinion actually belief exactly, if it's a different thing?

How can you call it belief if it's 'different', what is this definiton of 'belief' that only applies to the Christian God and is completely different to believing in anything else - is it in the dictionary? !

Quote:This is the crux. 'Choosing' can be independent of a reasoned position. You can choose not to believe even though your logical reasoning would support belief, and vice versa. How is that possible? The answer illustrates the point of belief being a choice.

It only illustrates it if it's actually a fact! You merely asserted it!

How exactly can you choose a belief despite the fact your reasoning supports the belief? If your reasoning supports the belief, then the belief makes sense to you, and if it makes sense to you more than not - you believe it! And If it doesn't make sense to you more than not, you don't believe it!

Sounds to me like you're talking about 'belief in belief'..like how despite the fact someone doesn't believe, they could still believe in belief in God, in the sense they believe that believing in God is a 'good thing' and more vauable than not believing, so they believe in the belief...despite the fact they don't actually believe that God himself actually exists, just that they think it's a good thing to believe that he does! So they strive to that, because they believe overall more good comes from believing that than not, despite they don't remotely actually believe it.

Although I'm not saying that you believe this, I'm just saying that's what it sounds like you're describing from what you're telling me...because if you don't believe in God in the same sense of any other belief, in other words, and if you don't actually believe that there is a God, like any other belief addresses that matter: Whether you do believe something is or isn't, exists or doesn't, is true or isn't, etc, etc! - then how exactly do you believe that God is real or 'true' in any sense, or exists in any way?

If your reasoning process is seperate to the belief, it just sounds to me like you're talking about being able to not literally believe but yet think belief in God is a good thing, so still 'have faith'.

Which is not belief in God, it's just belief in the belief in God.

Quote:Belief without action is no belief. If the truck bears down on me and I do nothing to save myself, then my belief is useless.
(forget the actual belief in the truck, because like I said, belief in actual reality isn't like belief in the non temporal) The result of belief is action. Your actions reflect your worldviews. Belief in God affects your worldview.

But this doesn't make sense whatsoever - because the fact that a belief is useless doesn't mean that it's 'no belief'! 'Belief' has a meaning, a definiton, and irrespective of if a belief is useful or not, it's still a belief...if you believe you believe and if you don't you don't.

If you're going to redefine an actual belief to 'no belief' if it's useless, then are you also going to define a non-belief to a 'belief' if it's useful, per chance? In which case you're not talking about the belief at hand at all, you're just talking about belief in the belief, belief that the belief is 'a good thing', etc.

If you don't actually believe then you don't believe (by definition?) - because you're completely redefining the meaning!

So as I said - if a useless belief is to be redefined to 'no belief' by you, then is the converse to be done also? Are you also to redefine a non-belief to a 'belief'....if it's useful?

If that's the case, you're just playing with words, because it's not about the belief, just about whether the belief is 'useful', you're talking placebo here and not reality if that's the case. And if that's the case...it's suck that you believe it's necessary!!

Quote:No, you essentially believe it but you deny it. Reasoning that belief is correct does not equal actually believing. Believing is the choice to act on your reasoning. To plant a flag. To adopt the position.

Actually, believing is believing, by definition - it's a tautology yeah?! Actually believing is believing, choosing to 'act' is.... just choosing to act!....Your reasoning, compelled by other things - is what convinces you to either believe or disbelieve.....

Acting like you believe is seperate to belief! You could disbelieve God but live your life as a theist for whatever reason, and vice versa....

Acting on the 'reasoned position' or the 'actual belief'...how is that belief in any way? The actual belief is the belief, by defininion! The acting like you believe is a by-product! And like I said...not even a necessary one...it's possible to act like you don't believe when you do, and vice versa!

And finally...how is not actual belief....belief?

EvF

Do we choose to not believe in Santa Claus?
No! We just realize he's not real and to keep ourselves from being childish and stupid we accept that and move on. Same difference. I was extremely let down when I figured out there was no Santa. I was very happy to realize there was no God. I thought about all of the "sins" I could commit and how much fun it was going to be to know that I didn't have to feel guilty about any of them.

Yes.. - Fr0d0, why is belief in God any different??

When a kid stops believing in Santa Claus, you think that however much they wish he were real, do you think they could ever 'choose' to believe he exists again?

EvF

Wow mega dodge! OK you refuse to discuss it. I get it. I shan't bother with you any further then.

Wow - I have to say you're the most narrow minded and stubborn person I've ever met. Your childish blanking is the epitome of ignorance.

Have a nice day.

I think we can safely say it is a matter of opinion