(June 20, 2012 at 12:38 am)gomtuu77 Wrote: What have you read that has given rise to your rejection of the Bible's general historical reliability and authenticity?

Sorry to interject because I know this wasn't directed at me but I just had to post this response.

1. 6 day creation, with plants and the earth before the sun and stars.
2. Global flood and all humans coming from the same surviving family
3. Tower of Babel, a tower that as supposed to reach to Heaven, and all languages came from this incident
4. The plagues in Egypt and 40 year Exodus, for which there is no evidence
5. The supposed glorious Davidic empire for which there is no evidence

And you wonder why we don't take the Bible seriously as a collection of historical documents?

Quote:What have you READ that has given rise to your rejection of the Bible's general historical reliability and authenticity?

The bible itself. Parading around a bunch of con artists who make their living telling religious twits that they are right ( which is what apologists do) proves nothing.

We know from history and archaeology that your bible is one massive steaming turd of disinformation. Read The Bible Unearthed and learn something for yourself.

(June 20, 2012 at 12:27 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:What have you READ that has given rise to your rejection of the Bible's general historical reliability and authenticity?

The bible itself. Parading around a bunch of con artists who make their living telling religious twits that they are right ( which is what apologists do) proves nothing.

We know from history and archaeology that your bible is one massive steaming turd of disinformation. Read The Bible Unearthed and learn something for yourself.

Also, check out Ze'ev Herzog.

Quote:gomtuu77 Wrote: What have you read that has given rise to your rejection of the Bible's general historical reliability and authenticity?

Wrong question;attempt to shift the burden of proof.

The onus is on you to provide examples of historical reliability. EG some thing verified by a contemporary source.

The Torah is the mythology of Judaism. The New Testament is the mythology of Christianity. Neither are history books,even within the limited sense of ancient texts of any kind,

(June 20, 2012 at 1:33 am)gomtuu77 Wrote: What have you READ that has given rise to your rejection of the Bible's general historical reliability and authenticity?
Curious...

It really doesn't matter how modern apologists spin it, there is still a complete lack of contemporaneous accounts of Jesus.

Here's a question for you.

According to the Bible, at the time of he Crucifixion, the sun went black for 3 hours.

Why was this terrorizing event not recorded by a single other culture in the eastern hemisphere?

There were many cultures that were more literate than Palestine, China for example (they recorded Halley's comet in 613 bce), that recorded every single celestial event they saw. Yet not a single record of an event this momentous? Really?!

(June 20, 2012 at 9:11 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 20, 2012 at 1:33 am)gomtuu77 Wrote: What have you READ that has given rise to your rejection of the Bible's general historical reliability and authenticity?
Curious...

It really doesn't matter how modern apologists spin it, there is still a complete lack of contemporaneous accounts of Jesus.

Here's a question for you.

According to the Bible, at the time of he Crucifixion, the sun went black for 3 hours.

Why was this terrorizing event not recorded by a single other culture in the eastern hemisphere?

And the zombies... don't forget the zombies! After all, "they went into the holy city and appeared to many people" but conveniently no-one thought it worth writing about.

It's like all the believers who witnessed the ascension, either about a hundred and twenty of over five hundred depending on whether you go with Luke or Paul. No indication of who they are, just background characters, just a number plucked from the air (and I'm being polite here) to add some sort of weight to the tale: "I saw an alien spaceship! I didn't get a photo, but there were, like, hundreds of people who saw it too! It can't be a coincidence and they can't all be lying!"

Before we start getting into why christians shove pine trees in their living rooms. Let's get something clear

Are you all saying Josephus wrote the Gospel of Mark, and therefore he is the one, who invented the Jesus myth?

(June 21, 2012 at 10:45 am)cratehorus Wrote: Are you all saying Josephus wrote the Gospel of Mark, and therefore he is the one, who invented the Jesus myth?

AFAIK, nobody claims that anybody "made up Jesus one day".

Nobody ever just makes up an urban legend nor is it necessary for someone to just invent an urban legend out of whole cloth.

If you look at the actual history of the time, it's not hard to see a compelling scenario where the ancient Jews chafing under Roman rule were wondering where the heck their promised kingdom went. What ever happened to Yahweh's promise to King David that his seed would rule forever?

To answer this theological question, it's not hard to see how some sects of Judaism began to think their kingdom existed in a higher place. Revelation, one of the earliest books of the NT, if not the earliest, describes a Jesus who rules on a throne in Heaven and comes down from the clouds like a mighty warlord to punish Israel's enemies. This is the kind of Messiah that the Jews were expecting.

Reading the Gospels in order (Mark, Matt, Luke, John), we see how the tale got better with the telling. Mark tells us nothing of any virgin birth. Jesus is a holy man who is clearly separate from and subordinate to his father. Matt tries to tie in Jesus to OT prophecy and clean up the story of Mark where he gets certain Jewish traditions wrong. Luke's Jesus was written separately from Matt as an elaboration of Mark, and thus contains numerous contradictions with Matthew. John's Jesus is the Trinitarian Jesus, equal with and united with his father. Contrasted with a knowledge of different Christianities of the time (Ebionite, Docetic, Marcionite, etc), it's easy to map out how Christian thinking changed and evolved over time.

Some say the early thoughts about Jesus were influenced by the Egyptians. Others the Greeks. Others the Persians. Others OT scripture. Others, the writings of Josephus. I think like most urban legends, it borrowed a bit here and there.

How did it happen? The ancient Jews were looking for their kingdom and promised Messiah in a higher place. Influenced by different ideas, they saw a Jesus in Heaven. Parables were written, like Mark, that brought him down to earth. They may have been intended only as parables (like Jesus and the fig tree) but were later retold as a true story. Matt and Luke added more to the story, as happens with urban legends. John refined it for what would be orthodox Christianity. No one person made it all up nor is it necessary to think so.

(June 21, 2012 at 10:45 am)cratehorus Wrote: Before we start getting into why christians shove pine trees in their living rooms. Let's get something clear

Are you all saying Josephus wrote the Gospel of Mark, and therefore he is the one, who invented the Jesus myth?

I'm certainly NOT saying that.

(June 21, 2012 at 11:34 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(June 21, 2012 at 10:45 am)cratehorus Wrote: Before we start getting into why christians shove pine trees in their living rooms. Let's get something clear

Are you all saying Josephus wrote the Gospel of Mark, and therefore he is the one, who invented the Jesus myth?

I'm certainly NOT saying that.

Carrier wrote a good article on the cribbing of Josephus by the author of Luke though!

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...ephus.html