(June 22, 2012 at 10:58 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(June 22, 2012 at 3:40 am)Voltair Wrote: Yep, everything is potentially possible if it can be verified/proven. Even if it can't be it is still possible but in the case of god(s) it is so far removed from detection that its probability isn't measurable.

It's actually worse than that, since gods are invariably designed to be perpetually undetectable. Believers always place them just beyond the reach of any investigation, scientific or otherwise.

Something I am PAINFULLY aware of unfortunately X_X

(June 22, 2012 at 10:33 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Relax, man. I think you're reading way too much into things.

I am relaxed really, and that is my point to the PC types, not just here, but in my history of posting I have seen this in human behavior before. Everyone is fine partaking in blasting others, or witnessing others blast people, but when someone turns on them, they shut off.

I've had on another website a pantheist(now atheist), a Jew, and recently a Buddhist pull this. They all watched as others, like me blasted the claims of things they agreed with, and or did the blasting themselves, then when I said "You don't get a pass either" they pull an Isac Hays.

I really don't want to hear it from minorities. I GET BEING A MINORITY, I AM A MINORITY, as an atheist surrounded by theists. I am surrounded by theists who at best do not understand me, and plenty others OUTSIDE the web in my daily life, that have equated me to Hitler and threatened me with hell. Been there.

I just don't see any point of saying " I get to pick on others claims, but they cant pick on mine".

EVEN out side the issue of this Taoist on this website, other atheists have blasted my claims on the issue of "philosophy and mind". I didn't run or demand they shut up.

If one feels secure enough in their position, they should not fear it, they should defend it. But don't be a hypocrite and watch others do it and comment on when they do it, and then demand a hands of on your own claims.

We still with all the bluster and arguing, can still beyond our positions, know we are still all humans.

Hi I just joined this site and I'm just going to apologize in advance if this is the wrong thread to post this in.

I am an atheist and have been one for about a 9 months, give or take a few, because I thought Christianity was illogical among other reasons. Recently, I decided to read up more on atheism and managed to broaden my knowledge on the subject through the internet. However, I'm eager to read up more on it and so I'm thinking about buying books on atheism. My question is, which books would you recommend for me to read?

I'm currently choosing between:
'God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything' by Christopher Hitchens
'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by Sam Harris
'Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon' by Daniel C. Dennett
'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins.

Which ones do you think is worth reading? Or are all of them worth a read? Also, are there any other books besides those listed above that you would recommend?

Once again, I'm really sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but I would really appreciate the help. Thank you.

Brian37, I can't believe I have to say this again, but no one is saying you have to coddle anyone. You just keep going off on these self-indulgent rants that have little or nothing to do with the post that you respond to, as evidenced by your most recent response. It's just that you keep getting worked up over things, and I can't for the life of me see a reason why.

---

applefreakingpie Wrote:Once again, I'm really sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but I would really appreciate the help. Thank you.

Yup, this is the wrong thread. You want to start an introduction thread in the introduction sub-forum.

(June 23, 2012 at 4:09 pm)applefreakingpie Wrote: Hi I just joined this site and I'm just going to apologize in advance if this is the wrong thread to post this in.

I am an atheist and have been one for about a 9 months, give or take a few, because I thought Christianity was illogical among other reasons. Recently, I decided to read up more on atheism and managed to broaden my knowledge on the subject through the internet. However, I'm eager to read up more on it and so I'm thinking about buying books on atheism. My question is, which books would you recommend for me to read?

I'm currently choosing between:
'God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything' by Christopher Hitchens
'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by Sam Harris
'Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon' by Daniel C. Dennett
'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins.

Which ones do you think is worth reading? Or are all of them worth a read? Also, are there any other books besides those listed above that you would recommend?

Once again, I'm really sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but I would really appreciate the help. Thank you.

If you do not read ALL of those, you deserve to be flogged. I have read most on that list, which means I need to flog myself.

(June 22, 2012 at 5:50 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Are you still pissed at me for questioning your profile statement of your personal beliefs no one forced you to submit on a website no one forced you to join?

Or am I mistaken and Kim Jong Un mandates that you respond on this website?

What part are you not getting?

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PERSON AND WHAT THEY CLAIM.

OUTSIDE the issue of the social club called labels, I LOVE MY MOM. But I do not like every thing she says or does. Same with her, I KNOW she loves me, but I know I can drive her nuts at some point.

THAT is how I view humans and evolution.

You got pissed at me because long before you came here you thought "atheists are minorities too, they wont question me"

Yet you are too sensitive and dense to understand that BOTH YOU AND I could not walk down the streets of Iran and sell our completely different positions to their citizens, and then hypocritically play victim and demand taboo from me.

Why did you come here? PLEASE do not tell me as a fan of Taoism or Hindus you did not read something from other labels and think to yourself "That is silly". You might not have said it, BUT YOU THOUGHT IT!

But you will NOT get away with painting blasphemy or questioning as evil. If our species never questioned social norms, our species never would have left the caves.

And your stupid pictures trying to paint the questioners as Lex Luthor when all they are doing is questioning is absurd.

I am a human first, you are a human first. But neither of us, not you , not me deserves a taboo.

My challenge to you RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW is to at a minimum STOP EQUATING HUMANS AS BEING THE CLAIMS THEY MAKE!

And if you really hate ME, FIGHT BACK, not physically, but with an argument. If we never agree THAT will and does happen.

I think one thing you might not know about me. I WAS BULLIED as a kid. AND IT SUCKED.

But this IS NOT bullying because YOU came here. I had on another forum a 5 year bought with a Christian 5 YEARS. Never once did he think I was Darth Vader. WE BOTH hated each others CLAIMS, but just like my mom is a Catholic, I never hated him.

SO PLEASE get over yourself, stop acting like a victim. If you think I am full of shit, say it. I won't hate you for it, YOU ARE NOT ONE CLAIM OR ONE SUBJECT.

You seem to have an addiction to being worked up over something. (Hard to tell this time just what that might be.) So much bluster. "Drama queen" is how I would describe you. Now try to notice that I don't ask that you get over yourself or ask you to stop acting the drama queen. You get to make these choices for yourself. I'm just here to tell you how tiresome it gets to listen to. Surely there is more to being a poet than expressing yourself dramatically.

Apophenia may annoy you, but believe me, you have that coming. She annoys me sometimes too but that doesn't prevent my hearing the many interesting insights coming from her. I think you're missing out by making such a show of what you have to say while listening so poorly to others. Life as a narcissist is tough. You really need to try harder to cultivate an interest in what others have to say.

(June 23, 2012 at 4:49 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(June 22, 2012 at 5:50 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Are you still pissed at me for questioning your profile statement of your personal beliefs no one forced you to submit on a website no one forced you to join?

Or am I mistaken and Kim Jong Un mandates that you respond on this website?

What part are you not getting?

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PERSON AND WHAT THEY CLAIM.

OUTSIDE the issue of the social club called labels, I LOVE MY MOM. But I do not like every thing she says or does. Same with her, I KNOW she loves me, but I know I can drive her nuts at some point.

THAT is how I view humans and evolution.

You got pissed at me because long before you came here you thought "atheists are minorities too, they wont question me"

Yet you are too sensitive and dense to understand that BOTH YOU AND I could not walk down the streets of Iran and sell our completely different positions to their citizens, and then hypocritically play victim and demand taboo from me.

Why did you come here? PLEASE do not tell me as a fan of Taoism or Hindus you did not read something from other labels and think to yourself "That is silly". You might not have said it, BUT YOU THOUGHT IT!

But you will NOT get away with painting blasphemy or questioning as evil. If our species never questioned social norms, our species never would have left the caves.

And your stupid pictures trying to paint the questioners as Lex Luthor when all they are doing is questioning is absurd.

I am a human first, you are a human first. But neither of us, not you , not me deserves a taboo.

My challenge to you RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW is to at a minimum STOP EQUATING HUMANS AS BEING THE CLAIMS THEY MAKE!

And if you really hate ME, FIGHT BACK, not physically, but with an argument. If we never agree THAT will and does happen.

I think one thing you might not know about me. I WAS BULLIED as a kid. AND IT SUCKED.

But this IS NOT bullying because YOU came here. I had on another forum a 5 year bought with a Christian 5 YEARS. Never once did he think I was Darth Vader. WE BOTH hated each others CLAIMS, but just like my mom is a Catholic, I never hated him.

SO PLEASE get over yourself, stop acting like a victim. If you think I am full of shit, say it. I won't hate you for it, YOU ARE NOT ONE CLAIM OR ONE SUBJECT.

You seem to have an addiction to being worked up over something. (Hard to tell this time just what that might be.) So much bluster. "Drama queen" is how I would describe you. Now try to notice that I don't ask that you get over yourself or ask you to stop acting the drama queen. You get to make these choices for yourself. I'm just here to tell you how tiresome it gets to listen to. Surely there is more to being a poet than expressing yourself dramatically.

Apophenia may annoy you, but believe me, you have that coming. She annoys me sometimes too but that doesn't prevent my hearing the many interesting insights coming from her. I think you're missing out by making such a show of what you have to say while listening so poorly to others. Life as a narcissist is tough. You really need to try harder to cultivate an interest in what others have to say.

Quote: So much bluster.

NOW YOU ARE GETTING IT!

If you can pull your hair out over what your family and friends and co workers do without killing them, THAT IS BLUSTER.

So yea, I do have an "addiction" getting humans to the point where bitching doesn't end in death while we all focus on things we have in common. I like food. I like shelter. I like having a job. And I like bitching.

If the worst you or I or all our species had to worry about is a "fuck you" I think we would be much better off.

So yea I do have an "addiction". Getting more and more people to the point where the worst they do when they get offended is say "fuck you"

---

(June 23, 2012 at 4:49 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(June 22, 2012 at 5:50 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Are you still pissed at me for questioning your profile statement of your personal beliefs no one forced you to submit on a website no one forced you to join?

Or am I mistaken and Kim Jong Un mandates that you respond on this website?

What part are you not getting?

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PERSON AND WHAT THEY CLAIM.

OUTSIDE the issue of the social club called labels, I LOVE MY MOM. But I do not like every thing she says or does. Same with her, I KNOW she loves me, but I know I can drive her nuts at some point.

THAT is how I view humans and evolution.

You got pissed at me because long before you came here you thought "atheists are minorities too, they wont question me"

Yet you are too sensitive and dense to understand that BOTH YOU AND I could not walk down the streets of Iran and sell our completely different positions to their citizens, and then hypocritically play victim and demand taboo from me.

Why did you come here? PLEASE do not tell me as a fan of Taoism or Hindus you did not read something from other labels and think to yourself "That is silly". You might not have said it, BUT YOU THOUGHT IT!

But you will NOT get away with painting blasphemy or questioning as evil. If our species never questioned social norms, our species never would have left the caves.

And your stupid pictures trying to paint the questioners as Lex Luthor when all they are doing is questioning is absurd.

I am a human first, you are a human first. But neither of us, not you , not me deserves a taboo.

My challenge to you RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW is to at a minimum STOP EQUATING HUMANS AS BEING THE CLAIMS THEY MAKE!

And if you really hate ME, FIGHT BACK, not physically, but with an argument. If we never agree THAT will and does happen.

I think one thing you might not know about me. I WAS BULLIED as a kid. AND IT SUCKED.

But this IS NOT bullying because YOU came here. I had on another forum a 5 year bought with a Christian 5 YEARS. Never once did he think I was Darth Vader. WE BOTH hated each others CLAIMS, but just like my mom is a Catholic, I never hated him.

SO PLEASE get over yourself, stop acting like a victim. If you think I am full of shit, say it. I won't hate you for it, YOU ARE NOT ONE CLAIM OR ONE SUBJECT.

You seem to have an addiction to being worked up over something. (Hard to tell this time just what that might be.) So much bluster. "Drama queen" is how I would describe you. Now try to notice that I don't ask that you get over yourself or ask you to stop acting the drama queen. You get to make these choices for yourself. I'm just here to tell you how tiresome it gets to listen to. Surely there is more to being a poet than expressing yourself dramatically.

Apophenia may annoy you, but believe me, you have that coming. She annoys me sometimes too but that doesn't prevent my hearing the many interesting insights coming from her. I think you're missing out by making such a show of what you have to say while listening so poorly to others. Life as a narcissist is tough. You really need to try harder to cultivate an interest in what others have to say.

Quote: So much bluster.

NOW YOU ARE GETTING IT!

If you can pull your hair out over what your family and friends and co workers do without killing them, THAT IS BLUSTER.

So yea, I do have an "addiction" getting humans to the point where bitching doesn't end in death while we all focus on things we have in common. I like food. I like shelter. I like having a job. And I like bitching.

If the worst you or I or all our species had to worry about is a "fuck you" I think we would be much better off.

So yea I do have an "addiction". Getting more and more people to the point where the worst they do when they get offended is say "fuck you".

Which is more important to ANY HUMAN, reaching old age, or being offended? Pardon me for not wanting the tribal bullshit of our species getting me potentially killed. How selfish of me to say "LEAVE IT AT WORDS JACKASSES"

That made no sense. I'm starting to think you just like hearing the sound of your own voice.

(June 23, 2012 at 4:09 pm)applefreakingpie Wrote: I'm currently choosing between:
'God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything' by Christopher Hitchens
'The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason' by Sam Harris
'Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon' by Daniel C. Dennett
'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins.

Which ones do you think is worth reading? Or are all of them worth a read? Also, are there any other books besides those listed above that you would recommend?

I would say all of them. With the possible exception of Dennett, those are all regarded as classics of the new atheism. I read Hitchens and part of Dennett. I had a problem with Dennett in that the pacing was unbearably slow; I think he was wearing kid gloves so as not to offend potential religious readers. I rather doubt that strategy was effective. Perhaps a better book by Dennett is Darwin's Dangerous Idea. I would also suggest reading more widely in Dawkins than just the narrowly focused God Delusion; he is worth reading.

A couple names you may have missed. Most importantly, Victor Stenger, who might be considered the fifth horseman. Depending on taste, Jennifer M. Hecht's "Doubt: A History" is a deep and thorough tour of the history of doubt and skepticism both inside and outside of religion, but be warned that it is longish (~500 pages), and a lot of information, maybe too much; on the other hand, learning about things like the Carvakas, which was a materialist school of Hinduism, is a lot of fun. Not sure who to recommend beyond that; perhaps Michael Shermer, , the skeptics guide to the universe (website and forum), JREF forums, and TEDtalks (videos on the web). I'm told there is a thriving atheist community "on" Youtube, and from some of the videos I've seen shared, a lot of good information and education is available from there. (Oh, and not to assume everybody is familiar with it, TalkOrigins.org is a website devoted to essays on evolution and the creation/evolution debate; imho, it contains some of the best information and writing on both that I've found; you'll learn what creationists don't understand about evolution and science, but you'll also likely learn that you didn't understand it as well as you thought you did, either. Highly recommended.)

Oh! Oh! And I almost forgot. Infidels.org has a deep collection, library, of both modern and historical writing on secularism, atheism, and religion. It's outstanding. (I've heard grumblings about the politics of the management and their forums, but that doesn't detract from the value of the library.)

(ETA: Getting a little further afield, you might consider some of Steven Pinker's work such as The Better Angels Of Our Nature and The Blank Slate. His The Language Instinct is also reputed to be outstanding, though I'm not sure it's relevant to your concerns. Oh, and not as in your face, but still very good are Jon Krakauer's books on Mormonism and the Pat Tillman story, Under The Banner Of Heaven and Where Men Win Glory, respectively; of the two, I'd say Banner is the best and most relevant.)

"The unquestioned authority of the vedas; the belief in a world-creator; the quest for purification through ritual bathings; the arrogant division into castes; the practice of mortification to atone for sin; - these five are the marks of the crass stupidity of witless men."
~ Dharmakirti (Buddhist)

(June 23, 2012 at 5:07 pm)Faith No More Wrote: That made no sense. I'm starting to think you just like hearing the sound of your own voice.

What is not to understand?

I DO take debate seriously. But I do not not think we should go beyond that and get so upset we as a species kill over it.

You have a problem with non violence? You just bitched about my bitching didn't you?

"BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, is all you are trying to do and is nothing more than the same theist sticking their fingers in their ears"

AND if I was only interested in hearing my own voice, I would simply make posts and not respond to anyone.