(June 25, 2012 at 1:39 am)GateofZion Wrote: 1. Believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins.

2. Follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Shouldn't believe in God and believe we are sinful be steps 1 and 2?

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: I was not talking about re-distribution of wealth, and neither was Christ. Your last sentence is what Christ taught us to do, not to give everything away and then make yourself poor what does that accomplish for society.

Lack of stuff does not make you poor. Lack of income makes you poor. If you gave away everything but what you needed for food (and food preparation/storage), medical care, clean clothing, sanitary shelter, and whatever you need to keep your job (car, phone, work attire); you would not be poor. You'd still have a job and everything you and your family need for a decent life. You would just be lacking some home entertainment. There are people who live this way: give away everything beyond what they need to live in basic decency and be able to keep having something to give away.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: These verses match with what I said, material things are not what's important, the spiritual is implied through all the teachings of Christ.

Apparently it's important to give the material things you don't need to the poor.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Like the last part of Matt. 6:19 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Keep your heart on the material and remain under judgement, or keep your heart on the spiritual, Christ, and escape the judgement.

Don't see how that excuses you from giving everything you don't really need to the poor. How much to give (and to whom, I have a tendency to help out those I know when intellectually I know there are a lot of people I don't know who are worse off) is something I struggle with as well.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Preparing for tomorrow and worrying about tomorrow are not the same thing. God tells us to be responsible in the gifts we are blessed with. I do rely on God for my future, there's nothing I can do to change tomorrow, I may not wake up, or can you or I stop a calamity from popping up in our lives, no, so I rely on God to help me with each day.

Living as though tomorrow will come is the smart play.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: All these verses are of self pride, they have nothing to do with pride in one's children, or the way one conducts his/her self in their work. Read what I stated, please.

Were I a sincere believer, I would be a little less prideful in my ability to be sure what God was talking about and have the humility to play it safe and avoid pride altogether; but hey, it's your soul (and your family's if you teach them pride is okay as long as it's for certain things).

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: All this is about self pride, Christ said to look at others as they are more important than yourself, in this way you will see that serving others is very important, those who follow this are also seen as more important than others that follow this, this puts all on equal ground as God sees us. No, I do not have selfish ambitions, why should I, am I suppose to be like you just because you could not live up to Christ's example. Your wrong, I see that others need things God has given me and will share with them, giving of myself as is their need.

You seem to take pride in that. Good to hear you're living up to Christ's example, I guess, but I think I detect a contradiction in there, maybe where you condemn someone else for not being able to live up to Christ's example, as though you are capable of it.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: You're hung up on the material, the riches in heaven are spiritual, I thought you said you were once a believer.

He's not the one who is trying to defend keeping his nice stuff.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: It matters because there are people who really need help, and we are to give of ourselves to help them, you know the thing above about humbling yourself and becoming the servant to the poor. Want to know where God said we can not live up to His standard, start in Genesis and read through Revelation and count the many, many times He said this.

That's what he's saying. Given the admonishments of Jesus and his followers, a real effort to live humbly and give everything you can to the poor should be the goal. No one said you have to be perfect about it, just that you should try.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: How is it you thought you were a Christian and not know the basics, that's like a freshman in high school science calling himself a professor.

In a thread about there being 40,000 denominations you're going to go with 'there's only one right answer and every true Christian agrees what it is'?

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: The Kingdom of God is at hand, it's not a far off place and yes I have sacrificed for God's kingdom, it would be far beyond your understanding.

I think that goes well beyond justified pride in your accomplishment well into arrogance and condescension.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Now that makes me snicker, who are you to even think I would look to you to live a perfect life.

More arrogance and condescension.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: God said, a man must live a perfectly sinless life to receive a place in heaven, those slip ups you mentioned they are sins also, sins that unforgiven will put one in hell. God is the One saying a person must be perfect. Christ taught these thing so we could be better people, but living by these teachings without a real belief in Christ will not help you get into heaven, received grace through faith is one's only way into heaven, through this faith one will be seen as perfect, why, because Christ will be standing in front of us, it will be Christ's perfection the Father will see.

Are you saying sinning is okay because you're forgiven? Because otherwise that was just off-topic preaching.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: The real matter of a life with the eternal God is to receive His Son as one's savior and Lord. After that people see many things differently, if anyone sees that salvation comes any other way is in trouble.

That's nice.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Simply believing is what it's about, so where does that leave you, somewhere below the psycho and crook, if we go by your words.

It must be nice to practice a faith where you get to heaven for having the right opinion without having to actually do anything. And asking to do more to help the poor puts him somewhere between psycho and crook? Really?

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Christians did not make this world this way we all did, yet you want Christians to take on the whole problem, where is your responsibility, should not all unbelievers share in this problem, it's you guys who claim to be so smart, why haven't you fixed it, you can't because you do not care if you did you would be knee deep in filth helping all those poor starving people, how much food do you toss out every year, how about the money you waste that could be given to those in need every year, spout your comments in the mirror before pointing at someone else.

There's no prize for longest run-on sentence. Everybody shares in the problem, but there's a particular group that's fond of bragging on how great they are at helping the poor, and we can't help but notice that there are an awful lot of poor people in a country that's supposedly 80% Christian (that's the group that likes to say they're so giving). Many members of this same group complain about their taxes going to welfare when the need for welfare isn't consistent with 80% of the country being composed of people so concerned about helping the poor. It's not a problem amenable to clever solutions, it's the kind that takes a lot of work. Now, take a moment to wipe the spittle from your keyboard. You don't know what we do for the poor, you just arrogantly assume you do more. The difference is that we don't claim to have been directed to do so by an omnipotent being who will mete out rewards and punishments related to how sincerely we attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus to the best of our poor abilities. If you want to say that Christians shouldn't be held to a higher standard, that's fine (we don't think being a Christian makes you a better person either)...but don't vomit on our humble efforts in the same breath, you hypocrite.

There in lies the real genius of Christianity, which is that it admonishes you to live an exemplar life while simulataneously telling you that it's impossible, so if you fall short of the goal, you can still sleep at night. It also seems to instill its followers with the arrogance to speak down to others in a condescending tone for not living up to the same ideals they fail to live up to themselves.

It's easy to see when you guys run out of real truths in an argument, keep up the good work.

You wouldn't know the truth if it shoved a cross up your ass, ignorant nimrod. Your opposition here has been the only side adhering to truth-and reality. You hide in your "faith" and "belief" and act smug. What a fucking sap.

Godschild Wrote:It's easy to see when you guys run out of real truths in an argument...

You mean like when someone abandons an argument merely to quip about how the other side no longer has an argument? You wouldn't do that, would you?

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: I was not talking about re-distribution of wealth, and neither was Christ. Your last sentence is what Christ taught us to do, not to give everything away and then make yourself poor what does that accomplish for society.

MA Wrote:Lack of stuff does not make you poor. Lack of income makes you poor. If you gave away everything but what you needed for food (and food preparation/storage), medical care, clean clothing, sanitary shelter, and whatever you need to keep your job (car, phone, work attire); you would not be poor. You'd still have a job and everything you and your family need for a decent life. You would just be lacking some home entertainment. There are people who live this way: give away everything beyond what they need to live in basic decency and be able to keep having something to give away.

Do you practice what you are preaching here, I bet not, I bet not even close. I could list many things I've done to help those in need, then you would respond that I was bragging. Know what I think of you and the others that return negative comments, you hate it when others help people in need, if you do not believe me go read your comments with honesty. What you are promoting is socialistic state, yes there are many who live under socialism and it just does not work.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: These verses match with what I said, material things are not what's important, the spiritual is implied through all the teachings of Christ.

MA Wrote:Apparently it's important to give the material things you don't need to the poor.

Not true, when people do not earn things, they have no ambition to help themselves, just look at the welfare program in the US, we now have three generations of the same families living on the backs of good hard working citizens, helping is one thing, enabling is plain wrong.
It's better to give people the ability to help themselves than to hand them stuff. Those who have immediate needs, those needs need to be meet by us. Since only Christians understand the need for spiritual needs through Christ there's no need to say any more.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Like the last part of Matt. 6:19 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Keep your heart on the material and remain under judgement, or keep your heart on the spiritual, Christ, and escape the judgement.

MA Wrote:Don't see how that excuses you from giving everything you don't really need to the poor. How much to give (and to whom, I have a tendency to help out those I know when intellectually I know there are a lot of people I don't know who are worse off) is something I struggle with as well.

Do you give all you things away, are you an enabler, one plate, cook pot, fork, spoon, knife to supply you eating needs, bet you have more.
You do not even understand the statement I made, so who are you to judge me, you have no idea how much I do for others, until you learn work on your own problems.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Preparing for tomorrow and worrying about tomorrow are not the same thing. God tells us to be responsible in the gifts we are blessed with. I do rely on God for my future, there's nothing I can do to change tomorrow, I may not wake up, or can you or I stop a calamity from popping up in our lives, no, so I rely on God to help me with each day.

MA Wrote:Living as though tomorrow will come is the smart play.

According to you, depending on God is the smarter choice IMO. Besides I never said that one should not look forward to tomorrow, I said one should not worry about tomorrow.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: All these verses are of self pride, they have nothing to do with pride in one's children, or the way one conducts his/her self in their work. Read what I stated, please.

MA Wrote:Were I a sincere believer, I would be a little less prideful in my ability to be sure what God was talking about and have the humility to play it safe and avoid pride altogether; but hey, it's your soul (and your family's if you teach them pride is okay as long as it's for certain things).

Were you a sincere believer, you would see and understand the teachings of Christ. Your talking like one who needs to do works to be sure, that's why the study of scripture is so important, self pride detracts from our God, having pride in things accomplished for good helps keep people interested in their work. Humility is understanding that God has given you the ability to accomplish things and that the gift you have is your's by grace, Christian or not. If you do not believe in God it is impossible for you to be humble in His eyes.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: All this is about self pride, Christ said to look at others as they are more important than yourself, in this way you will see that serving others is very important, those who follow this are also seen as more important than others that follow this, this puts all on equal ground as God sees us. No, I do not have selfish ambitions, why should I, am I suppose to be like you just because you could not live up to Christ's example. Your wrong, I see that others need things God has given me and will share with them, giving of myself as is their need.

MA Wrote:You seem to take pride in that. Good to hear you're living up to Christ's example, I guess, but I think I detect a contradiction in there, maybe where you condemn someone else for not being able to live up to Christ's example, as though you are capable of it.

I have not said I live up to Christ's standards, actually far from it, I try and many times I fail, that is exactly why I need Him.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: You're hung up on the material, the riches in heaven are spiritual, I thought you said you were once a believer.

MA Wrote:He's not the one who is trying to defend keeping his nice stuff.

I have not tied to defend not giving all my stuff away, actually I have not drawn a paycheck in over a year, and I still give where I see needs that are important. He is the one who keeps bringing treasures in heaven like they were physical riches, which they are not, all our needs will be met and even more. If you were a sincere believer you would know this.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: It matters because there are people who really need help, and we are to give of ourselves to help them, you know the thing above about humbling yourself and becoming the servant to the poor. Want to know where God said we can not live up to His standard, start in Genesis and read through Revelation and count the many, many times He said this.

MA Wrote:That's what he's saying. Given the admonishments of Jesus and his followers, a real effort to live humbly and give everything you can to the poor should be the goal. No one said you have to be perfect about it, just that you should try.

God does not give everyone the same missions in their lives, some are to give off their time, or talents, others of their wealth that God has bless them with. If Christians are doing this they are humbling doing for others, unlike these non profit organizations who pay people 100s of thousands of dollars of the top of what they collect.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: How is it you thought you were a Christian and not know the basics, that's like a freshman in high school science calling himself a professor.

MA Wrote:In a thread about there being 40,000 denominations you're going to go with 'there's only one right answer and every true Christian agrees what it is'?

As far as salvation goes, yes, the scriptures are quite clear on this, Christ himself said only through Him and being God He would know for certain.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: The Kingdom of God is at hand, it's not a far off place and yes I have sacrificed for God's kingdom, it would be far beyond your understanding.

MA Wrote:I think that goes well beyond justified pride in your accomplishment well into arrogance and condescension.

I think you are ignorant, ignorant of the fact that you and he are not Christians and you can not see the spiritual parts of God's work, so why try to explain, I've tried for two years and no one will open their ears.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Now that makes me snicker, who are you to even think I would look to you to live a perfect life.

MA Wrote:More arrogance and condescension.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: God said, a man must live a perfectly sinless life to receive a place in heaven, those slip ups you mentioned they are sins also, sins that unforgiven will put one in hell. God is the One saying a person must be perfect. Christ taught these thing so we could be better people, but living by these teachings without a real belief in Christ will not help you get into heaven, received grace through faith is one's only way into heaven, through this faith one will be seen as perfect, why, because Christ will be standing in front of us, it will be Christ's perfection the Father will see.

MA Wrote:Are you saying sinning is okay because you're forgiven? Because otherwise that was just off-topic preaching.

You have read enough of my post to know that's not what I was saying, unless you're that dumb, which I do not believe. What I do know is this , you like controversy, so you will make statements to bring it about. Not impressed either.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: The real matter of a life with the eternal God is to receive His Son as one's savior and Lord. After that people see many things differently, if anyone sees that salvation comes any other way is in trouble.

MA Wrote:That's nice.

That's awesome. So simple and yet so many miss out and that's sad.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Simply believing is what it's about, so where does that leave you, somewhere below the psycho and crook, if we go by your words.

MA Wrote:It must be nice to practice a faith where you get to heaven for having the right opinion without having to actually do anything. And asking to do more to help the poor puts him somewhere between psycho and crook? Really?

If any man tries to get to heaven on his/her opinion, well what can I say, they want. If one earns their way into heaven one would boast and could say to God see I did this, same problem Lucifer had.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: Christians did not make this world this way we all did, yet you want Christians to take on the whole problem, where is your responsibility, should not all unbelievers share in this problem, it's you guys who claim to be so smart, why haven't you fixed it, you can't because you do not care if you did you would be knee deep in filth helping all those poor starving people, how much food do you toss out every year, how about the money you waste that could be given to those in need every year, spout your comments in the mirror before pointing at someone else.

Quote:There's no prize for longest run-on sentence. Everybody shares in the problem, but there's a particular group that's fond of bragging on how great they are at helping the poor, and we can't help but notice that there are an awful lot of poor people in a country that's supposedly 80% Christian (that's the group that likes to say they're so giving). Many members of this same group complain about their taxes going to welfare when the need for welfare isn't consistent with 80% of the country being composed of people so concerned about helping the poor. It's not a problem amenable to clever solutions, it's the kind that takes a lot of work. Now, take a moment to wipe the spittle from your keyboard. You don't know what we do for the poor, you just arrogantly assume you do more. The difference is that we don't claim to have been directed to do so by an omnipotent being who will mete out rewards and punishments related to how sincerely we attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus to the best of our poor abilities. If you want to say that Christians shouldn't be held to a higher standard, that's fine (we don't think being a Christian makes you a better person either)...but don't vomit on our humble efforts in the same breath, you hypocrite.

Your info is wrong, there is no way 80% of America is Christian, not even close. I would be surprised if it were 30%. I do not see the Church braggin', that's your over worked imagination at work. So, when the likes of Bill Gates makes a huge public announcement he's giving away his money that's humble, right-o, Hollywood stars and all the like are on TV all the time spouting what they do, humble right. You all criticize Christians all the time about not doing for others, it's you who have no idea of what we do and that's the way we want it. I will tell you this, if the Church quite doing what we do, the government could not raise enough money to accomplish the same work, nor could they find the people to do it for the same small wage most get for doing this work. Most missionaries have to raise the money they need and pay for the college education they need to go serve over seas, most live at a poverty level.

http://www.christiancentury.org/article/...-christian

I see the church braggin a-plenty. BTW, your info on what the church does for the world sucks.

Giving your belongings to the poor is a mark of perfection. If you read that part in context, the first thing Our Lord is the basics, then when the young man asks "what else?" he gives the part about giving all that you own.

Many Christians already do this. It is a mark of religious life.

Funny, though, how the RCC really does more of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnjoBc_MRPc