(June 25, 2012 at 12:01 pm)whateverist Wrote: I've lifted the ban I placed on viewing your posts, Drich. Welcome back to the fold. I know, I know .. it is hard to believe your good fortune, right?

(June 25, 2012 at 10:15 am)Drich Wrote: In short Christianity is a religious effort dedicated to Christ because of the sacerficed He made. Not because He laid out all of it's doctrine. (What do you think all of the books after the gospels were for?)

Hard to resist such a set up line .. NT as TP?

But seriously if anyone thinks Jesus' message was about transcendence and that following him was code for realizing god within, then the answer to your question becomes "to take control of what Jesus was selling, re-brand it as a post-death experience and set the terms and price of admission." On a cynical view, that is the purpose of all the books of the bible including the gospels.


Welcome back.

Actually the Synoptic gospels were a 4 wittness tesitmony to the Birth, life, ministry, Death, burial, and resurection of Christ. The Gospels collective purpose is to establish the Deity of Christ, His role as the Lamb of God, and ulitmate sacerfice for sin. "His teachings" Centered around what He was supposed to do and why. Subsequently His deciples were also taught what they need to start the Chruch. Again what was known as ' Christianity' did not start till Acts chapter 2 (After Christ returned to Heaven, and the Holy Spirit was poured out onto the Chruch.)

If anything the Chruch is modeled after the teaching of the Holy Spirit as witnessed through the works and words of men like Peter and Paul. Not as the direct teachings of Christ. Because again the bulk of Christ's works outlined the principles needed to establish His own Deity and comming sacerfice christ is responsiable for the paradyme shift from OT Judism to NT Christianity, and He did plant and push the new direction of the Church, but the day to day Religious Christianity was the work of the Apstoles, recorded in the books between Acts and Reveations.

With so many responses from you since my shunning It did even feel like I had gone.

This seems a little like those believers who twist the definition of atheism so they can prove that atheists don't exist. I understand your point and perhaps the argument could be made that those who identify as Christian aren't doing a very good job of following the (alleged) example of their man/god but to say they aren't "true" Christians takes it a bit too far. I'm all for calling out hypocrisy but I draw the line at telling someone else how they should identify.

(June 25, 2012 at 2:56 am)cratehorus Wrote:

(June 25, 2012 at 2:44 am)Godschild Wrote: We differ on things that in the end want amount to a hill of beans.

You think religous war, genocide, witch burnings, and child soldiers is the equivalent of a "hill of beans"?

I think or at least hope you would know better than that, then actually you may be.......... enough not to.

"If just one person outside of Jesus could have accomplished this God would not have sent Jesus to die."

He sure fucked up the first time around, didn't he? Then he had to kill off his own son to fix it.


LOL! Pure comedy gold.

Quote:

---

You have some points right but most are exaggerated, first things first, salvation comes from grace through our faith in Christ, then we are to try and live a holy life, that means set apart, as in set apart from the worldly thinking. As far as giving our stuff to the poor, you have gave that no thought what so ever. If we were to give all our things to the poor, then we would be the poor and the ones that received those things would have to give them back, an endless cycle that Christ never meant to happen.

---

GoZ Wrote:Not really. Re-distribution of wealth dictates everyone can live generally equally if they should allow for it. If someone's house gets burned down, you build another or supply the funds to help. If someone needs food, you feed them, and if they're naked, you clothe them.

I was not talking about re-distribution of wealth, and neither was Christ. Your last sentence is what Christ taught us to do, not to give everything away and then make yourself poor what does that accomplish for society.

Gc Wrote:Christ said to those who are given much, much is expected. Take these two points and you have what Christ meant we are not to hoard, we are to help the poor, now here's where it has it's deeper meaning, whether they are poor in spirit or material things.

GoZ Wrote:" Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matthew 6:19"

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. Matthew 19:21"

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Acts 2:44-45"

There is but heavy indication on material aid, not "spiritual aid".

These verses match with what I said, material things are not what's important, the spiritual is implied through all the teachings of Christ. Like the last part of Matt. 6:19 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Keep your heart on the material and remain under judgement, or keep your heart on the spiritual, Christ, and escape the judgement.

Gc Wrote:How about tomorrow why do you worry about it, you are not guaranteed your next breath, no matter whether you believe in God or not. Many people drop dead in their tracks every day, who knows you could be next, they surely were not expecting to drop dead at that moment. What is it that would make you more deserving to live than them.

GoZ Wrote:And yet all of us prepare for tomorrow. We live as if the next day will come to pass (it wouldn't matter if we did die anyway, contextually speaking of our own concern). You are constantly securing your future, and the future of your children and grand children.

Preparing for tomorrow and worrying about tomorrow are not the same thing. God tells us to be responsible in the gifts we are blessed with. I do rely on God for my future, there's nothing I can do to change tomorrow, I may not wake up, or can you or I stop a calamity from popping up in our lives, no, so I rely on God to help me with each day.

Gc Wrote:The pride deal, what's wrong with having pride in things you accomplish, Jesus did not teach this was wrong, that is what socialism results in. Christ always wants us to put our best foot forward. What Jesus was speaking of was self pride, pride that makes you believe you're better than the next guy, good enough to believe you deserve to live over others for example.

GoZ Wrote:Jesus was far more extreme in his teachings then you will find any socialist to ever be. Despite what your conservative Judeo-Christian upbringing may have re-written for you.

"Don't be impressed with your own wisdom. Instead, fear the LORD and turn your back on evil. Then you will gain renewed health and vitality. Psalm 31:23

"The LORD despises pride; be assured that the proud will be punished.

Pride goes before destruction, and haughtiness before a fall. It is better to live humbly with the poor than to share plunder with the proud. Proverbs 3:7"

"The day is coming when your pride will be brought low and the LORD alone will be exalted. In that day the LORD Almighty will punish the proud, bringing them down to the dust. Proverbs 21:4"


"Look at the proud! They trust in themselves, and their lives are crooked; but the righteous will live by their faith. Isaiah 13:11"


"Anyone who wants to be the first must take last place and be the servant of everyone else. Matthew 11:25"


"The world offers only the lust for physical pleasure, the lust for everything we see, and pride in our possessions. These are not from the Father. They are from this evil world. Mark 9:35"

All these verses are of self pride, they have nothing to do with pride in one's children, or the way one conducts his/her self in their work. Read what I stated, please.

GoZ Wrote:Pride is not mentioned simply of thinking yourself better then someone, but of also taking pride in what you own or have done, or what you've learned. Matthew 11:25 even goes as far as to point out that real success is derived from being beneath others. Then there's this:



"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Phil 2:3"

Are you saying you don't have selfish ambition? The drive to make yourself better and better as a person? Do you really think yourself lower than everyone else? I don't think that you do.

All this is about self pride, Christ said to look at others as they are more important than yourself, in this way you will see that serving others is very important, those who follow this are also seen as more important than others that follow this, this puts all on equal ground as God sees us. No, I do not have selfish ambitions, why should I, am I suppose to be like you just because you could not live up to Christ's example. Your wrong, I see that others need things God has given me and will share with them, giving of myself as is their need.

Gc Wrote:God has said man can not live up to that standard, though through Christ we are to try.

GoZ Wrote:Which verse? And how is it trying if you're disregarding it? Any Christian can make a pit stop over at a soup kitchen and feed and clothe everyone and spreading his wealth. You could give a hobo on the street your car and keys and you'd still have it better then him. Why would it matter anyway if you truly believed you'd be a richer man in Heaven?

You're hung up on the material, the riches in heaven are spiritual, I thought you said you were once a believer. It matters because there are people who really need help, and we are to give of ourselves to help them, you know the thing above about humbling yourself and becoming the servant to the poor. Want to know where God said we can not live up to His standard, start in Genesis and read through Revelation and count the many, many times He said this. How is it you thought you were a Christian and not know the basics, that's like a freshman in high school science calling himself a professor.

GoZ Wrote:Unless you actually believe Heaven and its "glory" are simply the far away carrot on a stick that you can barely make out and are unsure of whether or not it exists, so you're not willing to give up any personal happiness on Earth for it.

The Kingdom of God is at hand, it's not a far off place and yes I have sacrificed for God's kingdom, it would be far beyond your understanding.

Gc Wrote:If just one person outside of Jesus could have accomplished this God would not have sent Jesus to die. The love thy enemy thing, try to do as Jesus did, Father forgive them they no not what they do, Jesus loved His enemies so much He ask the Father to forgive them for putting Him to death on a cross.

GoZ Wrote:I'm not asking for perfection, and neither as Jesus based on those teachings. Why would be preach all of this and declare his disciples and followers to heed it, if it were not meant to be taken seriously? Again, there's a difference between slipping up and sinning (something Jesus couldn't do), and disregarding the teachings you're supposed to live by from a man you believe to be the Son of God or rather God in human form.

Now that makes me snicker, who are you to even think I would look to you to live a perfect life.

God said, a man must live a perfectly sinless life to receive a place in heaven, those slip ups you mentioned they are sins also, sins that unforgiven will put one in hell. God is the One saying a person must be perfect. Christ taught these thing so we could be better people, but living by these teachings without a real belief in Christ will not help you get into heaven, received grace through faith is one's only way into heaven, through this faith one will be seen as perfect, why, because Christ will be standing in front of us, it will be Christ's perfection the Father will see.

Gc Wrote:Yes there are many denominations, some that have it wrong, most know that grace through faith saves them. We differ on things that in the end want amount to a hill of beans.

GoZ Wrote:You're simply repeating what I've said now. There's so many takes on the Bible and "God", that you have to boil it down to a couple of things just to maintain consistency among the flock. But that's the thing, the flock can't even hold to that. If simply believing Jesus was the son of God was all you needed to get into heaven, then every psycho and every crook who calls themselves a Christian is bound for glory. There has to be more to it then that, and logically speaking, no Christian truly goes that extra mile. If they did, world hunger and poverty would vanish. There's over 2 billion Christians on Earth, and quite a number of them can be found in the top 1% most wealthiest of people.

The real matter of a life with the eternal God is to receive His Son as one's savior and Lord. After that people see many things differently, if anyone sees that salvation comes any other way is in trouble. Simply believing is what it's about, so where does that leave you, somewhere below the psycho and crook, if we go by your words. Christians did not make this world this way we all did, yet you want Christians to take on the whole problem, where is your responsibility, should not all unbelievers share in this problem, it's you guys who claim to be so smart, why haven't you fixed it, you can't because you do not care if you did you would be knee deep in filth helping all those poor starving people, how much food do you toss out every year, how about the money you waste that could be given to those in need every year, spout your comments in the mirror before pointing at someone else.

"The real matter of a life with the eternal God is to receive His Son as one's savior and Lord."

There is no "real" matter in such. In fact, "real" and "matter" must of a necessity be divorced from the equation by means of the "F" word employed for that very purpose.

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: The real matter of a life with the eternal God is to receive His Son as one's savior and Lord. After that people see many things differently, if anyone sees that salvation comes any other way is in trouble. Simply believing is what it's about, so where does that leave you, somewhere below the psycho and crook, if we go by your words. Christians did not make this world this way we all did, yet you want Christians to take on the whole problem, where is your responsibility, should not all unbelievers share in this problem, it's you guys who claim to be so smart, why haven't you fixed it, you can't because you do not care if you did you would be knee deep in filth helping all those poor starving people, how much food do you toss out every year, how about the money you waste that could be given to those in need every year, spout your comments in the mirror before pointing at someone else.

1803 posts without providing a single shard of evidence for your god. Do you think your god would be proud of this severe lack of efficiency?

This is the equivalent of being an everyday starter on a major league baseball team and not getting a hit for three consecutive seasons!

(June 25, 2012 at 11:10 pm)Godschild Wrote: The real matter of a life with the eternal God is to receive His Son as one's savior and Lord. After that people see many things differently, if anyone sees that salvation comes any other way is in trouble. Simply believing is what it's about, so where does that leave you, somewhere below the psycho and crook, if we go by your words. Christians did not make this world this way we all did, yet you want Christians to take on the whole problem, where is your responsibility, should not all unbelievers share in this problem, it's you guys who claim to be so smart, why haven't you fixed it, you can't because you do not care if you did you would be knee deep in filth helping all those poor starving people, how much food do you toss out every year, how about the money you waste that could be given to those in need every year, spout your comments in the mirror before pointing at someone else.

Ahh, you mean christian works like this?



Yep, I can see where that is helping the poor.

G-C...you seem nothing more than a petulant, ignorant and demanding two year old. The reason WHY the worlds troubles are not remedied is BECAUSE of religion and the elitist status it holds with world governments.

And while we're at it, GC, since your god was so arrogant as to suggest that, by sending his son to death, all sins would be forgiven, I think the advertising scheme went wrong, since you are now trying to foist the burden off his imaginary shoulders and onto those who do not believe the claptrap you try to peddle. What are the rest of us doing? Actual work, with an eye toward real results-NOT waiting for portents, watching for messages, praying to the air and asking for miracles. Science is at WORK-not on vacation, which is the only place religion ever spends time, and on borrowed money at that.