The cross is an instrument of death, you fool. And it was not even an early xtian symbol.

It came into use when your fucking church wanted to send a message.[/b]

(July 3, 2012 at 7:13 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:something or someone to fear then by doing that you can also make them act in a way or take certain actions that they would otherwise not do.

Well, we all have to obey the law, don't we. We fear punishment, therefore, we obey the law.
Fear is something that everyone uses towards someone. Why should it be any different for religion?

Because their fear is childish and based on fantasy and when mixed with politics gets other people killed. Fear of prison is natural and healthy and based in reality. Evolution displays in all sorts of species a hostility to being forcefully contained, thus, although some are too ignorant to avoid doing stupid shit to get arrested, most avoid it because it provides individual freedom, and maintains social stability.

Fear is part of evolution, and all of us fear something, the difference is knowing the difference between healthy fear and irrational fear. Fear of the invisible is childish.

(July 4, 2012 at 12:32 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm not teary about anything you say, it would be stupid for me to cry over your nonsense. Yes, please use the Southern Baptist. The cross is a symbol of love and we do not worship it. One can shorten their life, I thought you said you knew scripture, I must be going deaf.

Or dumb, I've never met someone who could hear written words.
I'm not quoting scripture, I'm quoting you. You said you couldn't change your date of death because it was pre-ordained by God, now you're telling me you can shorten your life. Which is it you believe?

You put crosses in every church and every place you can then kneel and pray before them. Thats the definition of idolatry.
Also, this has already been said but its worth saying again, the cross was a device used to crucify people. Its sole purpose was to slowly kill people in the most painful way possible. The fact your Messiah was nailed to it should kind of drive this point home but then your melon like head is nothing if not impenetrable to information.
And no, the fact he supposedly forgave our sins nailed to it *still* doesn't make it a symbol of love in the same way that because Hitler gave some of his speeches on a balcony it doesn't make balconies a symbol of hate. Words uttered while placed on either do not for one second change their primary functions.

(July 4, 2012 at 9:41 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(July 4, 2012 at 12:32 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm not teary about anything you say, it would be stupid for me to cry over your nonsense. Yes, please use the Southern Baptist. The cross is a symbol of love and we do not worship it. One can shorten their life, I thought you said you knew scripture, I must be going deaf.

Or dumb, I've never met someone who could hear written words.
I'm not quoting scripture, I'm quoting you. You said you couldn't change your date of death because it was pre-ordained by God, now you're telling me you can shorten your life. Which is it you believe?

You put crosses in every church and every place you can then kneel and pray before them. Thats the definition of idolatry.
Also, this has already been said but its worth saying again, the cross was a device used to crucify people. Its sole purpose was to slowly kill people in the most painful way possible. The fact your Messiah was nailed to it should kind of drive this point home but then your melon like head is nothing if not impenetrable to information.
And no, the fact he supposedly forgave our sins nailed to it *still* doesn't make it a symbol of love in the same way that because Hitler gave some of his speeches on a balcony it doesn't make balconies a symbol of hate. Words uttered while placed on either do not for one second change their primary functions.

You are a hopeless , you think like a child, I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't know up from down or left from right.

I think it's unfair to say that the cross (in this instance) must definitely represent one thing. Symbolism is subjective. Put a cross in front of a Christian and they might say 'Jesus'. Put it in front of a historian and they might say 'torture'. I don't think it's something to beat each other up about...

(July 5, 2012 at 2:33 am)Godschild Wrote:

(July 4, 2012 at 9:41 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Or dumb, I've never met someone who could hear written words.
I'm not quoting scripture, I'm quoting you. You said you couldn't change your date of death because it was pre-ordained by God, now you're telling me you can shorten your life. Which is it you believe?

You put crosses in every church and every place you can then kneel and pray before them. Thats the definition of idolatry.
Also, this has already been said but its worth saying again, the cross was a device used to crucify people. Its sole purpose was to slowly kill people in the most painful way possible. The fact your Messiah was nailed to it should kind of drive this point home but then your melon like head is nothing if not impenetrable to information.
And no, the fact he supposedly forgave our sins nailed to it *still* doesn't make it a symbol of love in the same way that because Hitler gave some of his speeches on a balcony it doesn't make balconies a symbol of hate. Words uttered while placed on either do not for one second change their primary functions.

You are a hopeless , you think like a child, I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't know up from down or left from right.

Did everyone see how he just backed out of questions he couldn't answer without compromising his stance? Everyone get aload of that?
Awesome, I'm satisfied with this fairly typical conclusion. Everyone give Godschild a round of applause for being himself. :-)

'Nough said.

---

(July 5, 2012 at 12:08 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I think it's unfair to say that the cross (in this instance) must definitely represent one thing. Symbolism is subjective. Put a cross in front of a Christian and they might say 'Jesus'. Put it in front of a historian and they might say 'torture'. I don't think it's something to beat each other up about...

Oh I know but his argument was that its a symbol of love.
His messiahs *nailed* to it bleeding and suffering and its a symbol of love? I mean, really? Does anyone buy that for even a second? Also, as you pointed out; It *is* a symbol, an "idol" if you will which is worshiped regularly by Christians all over the world.
My main point though was that Godschild was making conflicting statements when addressing my query of whether he would choose to extend his life or go directly to heaven all of which were equal in terms of bullshit.

(July 4, 2012 at 12:32 am)Godschild Wrote: The cross is a symbol of love...

Really? This puts Stockholm Syndrome to shame.

Imagine if the whole affair had taken place in France. The guillotine would be a "symbol of love". Then again, most zombies don't come back from that.

(July 5, 2012 at 2:33 am)Godschild Wrote:

(July 4, 2012 at 9:41 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: Or dumb, I've never met someone who could hear written words.
I'm not quoting scripture, I'm quoting you. You said you couldn't change your date of death because it was pre-ordained by God, now you're telling me you can shorten your life. Which is it you believe?

You put crosses in every church and every place you can then kneel and pray before them. Thats the definition of idolatry.
Also, this has already been said but its worth saying again, the cross was a device used to crucify people. Its sole purpose was to slowly kill people in the most painful way possible. The fact your Messiah was nailed to it should kind of drive this point home but then your melon like head is nothing if not impenetrable to information.
And no, the fact he supposedly forgave our sins nailed to it *still* doesn't make it a symbol of love in the same way that because Hitler gave some of his speeches on a balcony it doesn't make balconies a symbol of hate. Words uttered while placed on either do not for one second change their primary functions.

You are a hopeless , you think like a child, I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't know up from down or left from right.

No, thinking like a child is what the church did when Galileo told the truth about the nature of the sun and earth.

Thinking like a child is what you are doing. Wanting ANY god to be real is not the same as having evidence of such.

1.A history of tradition is not evidence, otherwise 3,000 years of believing the sun was a god, would make the sun a god.

2.Popularity of a claim also does not make a god real, otherwise by proxy of numbers we should all be Muslims because they have the most numbers.

You merely, like every human in our species evolution, are merely projecting your own personal desires on the world around you. Children believe in Santa, adults believe in Santa for adults.

The wise give up on bad claims and move forward. That is what adults do, or should do.

If you want to believe in something that has no evidence, we cannot stop you, but the claim that we are being childish for trying to pull you out of your delusion, is absurd, and you are being the child throwing a tantrum when the adults are merely trying to pull you into reality.

In all seriousness, think about WHY you reject all the other god claims besides yours. When you figure that out, you will understand why we reject yours as well. The only difference between you and I is that I simply reject one more god claim than you do.

I can promise you, you wont burn in a fictional hell, nor is there a fictional heaven to go to . Your life can still have a meaning that you personally give it. You will still have ups and downs throughout your life. But you will be free from the mind bondage of superstition. There is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting reality the way it is.

Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, ect ect, were not around 1 billion years ago, and will not exist after our species goes extinct because there will not be any future generation to sell these myths to. The universe will continue on without any record of us. It may not be sexy, but that is reality.

I still find lots of good even knowing I am finite. I find the size of just our galaxy amazing. I find the power of volcanos amazing. I find my mother's love for me amazing. I find my pet cat amazing. And I find it amazing when my sucky Redskins manage to squeak out a win.

You've been to a movie I am sure. You still did knowing it was finite and would end, and you still enjoyed it knowing it would end. Why does life have to be infinite? I find no value in that claim, much less evidence for such.

The good and bad that happen on this planet and in the universe are not the battle between a bearded man and a man with a pitchfork fighting over the neurons in our heads. The good and bad that happen are a result of nature, nothing more.

It frightens me more that humans make up gods and insist on believing in them in spite of the reality in front of them. Non existent gods do not frighten me, human ignorance does.

Symbolism isn't the same as idolatry. Idolatry involves worshipping the signifier as the signified--traditional worship in the times of ancient Israel involved the belief that the spirits indwelled the physical icons.

But when people worship at a cross, they aren't worshipping the cross, they're worshipping what the cross signifies. It's like when you look at an image of your wife; you don't feel love for the image, you feel love for the person the image is of.