Quote:What does an atheist hold in high esteem or worship? Not God, not a fresh cow turd, what then? What does an atheist live for - if you don't mind my asking?

What is there to live for, lad? What about life itself? Family, you know? We get one crack at this. I, for one, don't intend to waste it on my knees to some superstitious shit.

And I certainly do not share your apparent desire to spend eternity with your lips attached to jesus' ass.

(September 7, 2009 at 12:47 am)ecolox Wrote: What does an atheist hold in high esteem or worship? Not God, not a fresh cow turd, what then? What does an atheist live for - if you don't mind my asking?

Well we certainly don't live our life waiting for death or expecting judgement from the intergalactic dictator, we don't live our lives thinking that this is only the trial period or thinking that the best part of existence (heaven) isn't even part of this life. We don't spend our lives on our knees in prayer, or accepting ancient ideals passed down hundreds of generations, we don't spend our lives foolishly thinking that an ancient book had some kind of insight or waiting for rapture... I'd like to think we atheists as a whole (though i claim not to speak for anyone) like to look at life as an adventure; something to be lived and experienced....

But most importantly: We live our lives in wonderment of the amazing, truly divine master:

(September 6, 2009 at 4:02 pm)Saerules Wrote: It does, and atheism has remained exactly the same since the human specie ever evolved. In fact, it has remained exactly the same since the 'beginning' of the universe. Theism, on the other hand, is positively new.

Ecolox Wrote:What do you mean "the 'beginning' of the universe"? Don't atheists think that, at the very least, the potential for our current predicament has always existed? Now, how does that work?

Also, why do you define atheism in terms of human evolution? If atheism only requires a lack of belief then even a box of rocks qualifies as atheistic - so shouldn't you say atheism has remained exactly the same for eternity - long before the beginning? Wouldn't that be more accurate? "Build your house on atheism, been around since before the beginning".

You are correct about atheism, i was using a form of dramatic presentation of data

Theism begins with society, and i initially compared atheism to that. Then i went further, to state that everything in existence has always been naturally atheistic. Since the very 'beginning' (is there a beginning to a cycle?), atheism has stretched across the universe (multiverse + separate dimensions?).

However, theism has only been around since society, and your specific 'Christian' belief has been around for less than 2100 years.

@ fr0d0: The new isn't always stupid... but Christianity certainly is. And
[attachment=139]
should be sufficient evidence for that.

(edit: i really must learn how to increase picture size in a post, if someone would be so kind as to tell me?)

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I don't know about everyone else... but i live for me, people i love, and to one day be diagnosed with diabetes.

Quote:Well we certainly don't live our life waiting for death

Royal "we"? There is no"we". There is no atheist position on ANY subject other than a disbelief in god(s) Nor is there any such thing as 'an atheist spokesperson'

(September 7, 2009 at 6:26 am)padraic Wrote:

Quote:Well we certainly don't live our life waiting for death

Royal "we"? There is no"we". There is no atheist position on ANY subject other than a disbelief in god(s) Nor is there any such thing as 'an atheist spokesperson'

theVOID is just stating that we live our lives for here and now, making the best of what we have. He isn't claiming to be a spokesperson?

(September 7, 2009 at 12:47 am)ecolox Wrote:

(September 6, 2009 at 12:51 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Yes, morality is an ethical system, ethics are defined by society and are relative to it. What's more it is quite evidence (even using your own bible as an historical source) that morality changes over time.

So the ethics defined by the Nazis were relative to it. Could you honestly oppose such a society? How?

I think what the Nazi's did was horrendous but part of the reason I do so is because I have been bought up in a society that has taught me that such things are wrong, yes I have subsequently validated those views but that is nevertheless true. As to whether what the Nazi's did is objectively wrong I would say no because there were (obviously) many Nazis' that agreed with what they were doing, many others who stayed silent and a few (in my opinion heroes) who acted against them. Quite obviously may in that society DID find what was being done to the Jews in their name morally acceptable although I accept that relatively few knew the true horrors of the camps. I have no idea what was actually going on inside the minds of those who supported what was happening and I'd rather not delve in such dark places any more than I want to really know what goes on inside a theists head.

(September 7, 2009 at 12:47 am)ecolox Wrote: As I'll always ask - care to back up your claim at all - this time about the Bible and morphing morality?

Genocide is regarded as wrong today (hence our reaction to The Holocaust) but it apparently wasn't wrong for your murderous god.

(September 7, 2009 at 12:47 am)ecolox Wrote:

(September 6, 2009 at 12:51 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Murder is a legal concept (the illegal killing of an individual) and only reflects morality in a rights based society. According to your bible genocide, indeed the wiping out of an entire world's population all bar 8, was justifiable in moral terms.

Are you saying that murder could be fine by you, if a society defined it as such (like the Nazis did) or not?

That isn't what I said, I said murder was a legal concept i.e. the illegal killing of a person ... that isn't to say I don't personally believe other forms of killings are wrong.

(September 7, 2009 at 12:47 am)ecolox Wrote: Can a person be legally killed (as in the Biblical example)? What are you getting at exactly?

A person can be legally killed yes, it's known as the death penalty and (legal or not) I don't agree with it.

As in the bible? Given that I dispute your biblical claim that a god exists I am hardly going to accept that god's dictates as legal now am I?

(September 7, 2009 at 12:47 am)ecolox Wrote: Be plain, if you will.

What do you think you are? A fucking Quaker?

Kyu

(September 7, 2009 at 12:47 am)ecolox Wrote: What does an atheist hold in high esteem or worship?

(September 7, 2009 at 1:23 am)Retorth Wrote: We do not hold the spiritual or supernatural in high esteem, neither do we worship anything. There is no need to worship mysterious forces because life is to be lived here and now. You make the best of what you have and enjoy it to the fullest.

I know you don't highly regard a higher power, but I'm sure you worship something. What is most important to you, what's the best thing?

Retorth Wrote:Besides, how can you hold such a god in high esteem who claims to care for each and every person when there are millions dying every day of starvation?

If people weren't suffering somewhere then no one would have an opportunity to help anyone. And I believe that this life isn't all there is to it, so though it be painful - it's not all there is to it.

Retorth Wrote:I live for my family, to love and care for them, to protect and learn from them as they do with me as well.

That's not good enough according to Jesus or me, what about all your enemies and strangers?

Retorth Wrote:I live to appreciate what I have and to strive to be the best that I can be.

What does that mean?

Retorth Wrote:I do not live, however, for imaginary beings.

You live for nothing.

Retorth Wrote:Life does not need the supernatural to make sense. If you need the supernatural for your life to make sense, then perhaps you are simply dissatisfied with what you have around you.

Life does need the supernatural to make sense - otherwise explain it, if you will. And yes, I am dissatisfied with what I have around me - it's called evil, selfishness, impatience, and on and on.

(September 6, 2009 at 2:57 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Evie was saying that theism is getting 'dated' and irrelevant whereas atheism is current, which is of course bollocks. Non belief presumably pre dates belief.

I'm talking about the atheist movement, and I actually said that I didn't think theism was necessarily ever going to go away. I think theism is primitive, atheism is more ancient yes, but I wasn't talking about that - I was talking about the fact that atheism is on the rise in numbers, etc.

I did say 'dated', but I didn't mean it like that.

EvF

(September 7, 2009 at 2:05 am)padraic Wrote: A moral relativist I reject the notion of moral absolutes and any moral authority other than individual conscience.

Ok, I guess that means as an individual I get to decide what's moral. Based off some story I heard: Is that your stereo over there buddy? I'll be taking that now, whether you want me to or not. See ya later, and don't try to enforce your rules on me as I walk out with the stereo.

padraic Wrote:I accept LEGAL authority TO A DEGREE, but not absolutely. It's in my best interest to do so for the most part and from fear of punishment (EG I REALLY do not want to go to prison to become the wife of a 300 pound biker called "House" )

Ok then, me too - except I don't fear punishment so much. I like your stereo, thanks. I will die for this stereo if I have to.

padraic Wrote:Not only do I assert that morality changes with time, I assert it changes constantly with circumstances. This principle is called "the ends justify the means" and is how the world REALLY works. Such a principle was also accepted and encouraged by YHWH, as even a casual glance the Torah will show.

Yea, I guess that's why YHWH wrote a set of commands in stone. By the way, as you make all these assertions will you realize the importance of support? Now, I believe that I get to have your stereo, thanks - don't get in my way please. It wasn't always your stereo anyway - before you had it the store had it, and before that the factory...now it's my turn I believe.

padraic Wrote:"What do atheists worship?" is a meaningless question. Atheism is a position of disbelief only ,not a religion or ideology. NOTHING is implied (suggested) or many be inferred (concluded) from that position.

I expect its not as meaningless as you think. Now I know atheists don't worship God - the disbelief suggests that specifically, and I think I'm safe to come to that conclusion - so what do they worship (consider most important)? (in case you were wondering - I was fishing for information there from individual atheists).

padraic Wrote:SOME atheists may worship power,wealth, their spouse, or a political leader.(or anything else they choose) Those things have nothing to do with atheism, and everything to do with individual psychological needs.

Ah, atheists do worship something after all. First you say the question is meaningless, then you go on and answer it...well, so be it. And, of course what they worship is related to their atheism - otherwise you might find atheists worshiping God.

padraic Wrote:I have no need to worship anything or anyone...The purpose of life to me is itself and that is enough. I love life and enjoy every day. I try not to judge or criticise those who see life differently,as long as they stay out of my face. I have only contempt for proselytisers,ranging from the loopiest evangelicals to the militant atheist who wants to destroy religion and gets upset when I disagree...

So you don't think anything is most important. You don't have a highest "reason for living". The purpose of life is life - that sounds redundant - perhaps you should put it in other words? Anyway, does anything else work like that - e.g. I work to work (not make money), I play to play (not to have fun), I eat to eat (not to get nourishment, I sleep to sleep (not to get rest), I talk to talk (not to communicate)?
Well, here you are proselytizing me, how contemptuous. Why would you chime in except to sell your own way of thinking? No one even asked you to participate you just jumped right in and began praising your way, and making my way look bad. Is the purpose of your disagreement just to disagree? Needless to say, I don't understand your way of thinking.

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(September 7, 2009 at 2:13 am)Darwinian Wrote:

Quote:What does an atheist hold in high esteem or worship?

Are you saying that without theism life for you wouldn't be worth living?

Yes, that's what I mean.

Darwinism Wrote:That a world full of mystery and wonder, the fascination of finding out how things work and the love of family and friends would simply not be enough for you?

Exactly. Why avoid explaining the mystery of what is known? Why do you insist on ignorance?

Darwinism Wrote:And what is worship and why should anyone want to worship anything? And why for that matter, would anything demand to be worshiped?

Well, by worship I mean hold in highest regard - what's most important? Why would you avoid considering something of the highest importance? If you actually did that, you might get stuck on a decision - and die from inaction.
Why would anything demand to be worshiped? If I thought God demanded worship, how could I reconcile it to the fact that you (among others) seem to get away with resisting His demand so easily?

(September 7, 2009 at 2:05 am)padraic Wrote: A moral relativist I reject the notion of moral absolutes and any moral authority other than individual conscience.

I'm not quite sure I understand this. You're saying you decide for yourself what is morally right and wrong?