It just stinks, full stop.

(July 15, 2012 at 4:16 pm)spockrates Wrote: I'm wondering whether there are any biblical passages that contradict one another. Please provide two contradictory passages for discussion and explain why they result in a contradiction. Thanks.

Here's another one about Jesus's last words :-

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I think that's enough examples now, but there are many more I'm sure.

Regards

Grimesy

(July 18, 2012 at 12:35 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: So there are mistakes within the bible that you admit to. Now given that there are these errors that are obvious it raises the possibility that there are errors that are not so obvious. This could extend to doctrine and there is no way of knowing what was truth. In inverted commas.
Blessed are the cheese makers you say.

There are errors in translation, yes. One should be wary of these and take steps to avoid being misinformed by them. Comparing different versions (as was done in the example) is one way. The question to ask is how prevalent are these? Are they rare, or are they found everywhere throughout the text?

The argument biblical scholars make for the reliability of the text is that there are thousands of extant manuscripts (MSS), so the errors are easier for them to spot and weed out, than they are for other ancient texts. An error found in 20 MSS might not be present in 2,000 others.

Not sure what you mean by errors that are not obvious. Do you mean errors that are unknown, or errors that are known only by a few, or errors that are believed to be errors by some but rejected by many?

(July 18, 2012 at 1:00 pm)spockrates Wrote:

(July 18, 2012 at 12:35 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: So there are mistakes within the bible that you admit to. Now given that there are these errors that are obvious it raises the possibility that there are errors that are not so obvious. This could extend to doctrine and there is no way of knowing what was truth. In inverted commas.
Blessed are the cheese makers you say.

There are errors in translation, yes. One should be wary of these and take steps to avoid being misinformed by them. Comparing different versions (as was done in the example) is one way. The question to ask is how prevalent are these? Are they rare, or are they found everywhere throughout the text?

The argument biblical scholars make for the reliability of the text is that there are thousands of extant manuscripts (MSS), so the errors are easier for them to spot and weed out, than they are for other ancient texts. An error found in 20 MSS might not be present in 2,000 others.

Not sure what you mean by errors that are not obvious. Do you mean errors that are unknown, or errors that are known only by a few, or errors that are believed to be errors by some but rejected by many?

Are you saying that there does not exist a bible that is free from errors or mistranslation ?

Regards

Grimesy

(July 18, 2012 at 12:36 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote:

(July 18, 2012 at 11:17 am)spockrates Wrote: Does a quote have to be accurately attributed to be true? For example, more than 2,300 years ago Socrates said, "Birds of a feather flock together." Now someone might say that Socrates was the first to say it, for Plato's dialogs are the oldest extant documents to contain the quote. But after speaking the words, Socrates said the proverb was an extremely old one. We might never know who first uttered the words, but that doesn't mean they're any less true, I think. How about you? (Nice avatar, BTW. Looks familiar. Is that a photo of you, or someone you admire?)

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Thanks Grimesy. Yes I like BibleGateway.com. In response to the apparent contradiction you suggested, it's possible it's a case of mistranslation. Saul had many daughters. The NIV translates the passage this way:

But the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Aiah’s daughter Rizpah, whom she had borne to Saul, together with the five sons of Saul’s daughter Merab,[a] whom she had borne to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite.

(2 Samuel 21:8)

The footnotes for the passage from that version:

(a) 2 Samuel 21:8 Two Hebrew manuscripts, some Septuagint manuscripts and Syriac (see also 1 Samuel 18:19); most Hebrew and Septuagint manuscripts Michal

That Saul had a daughter by that name is evident from another passage:

Saul said to David, “Here is my older daughter Merab. I will give her to you in marriage; only serve me bravely and fight the battles of the Lord.” For Saul said to himself, “I will not raise a hand against him. Let the Philistines do that!”

(1 Samuel 18:17)

One thing I find interesting is that biblical scholars usually use the translation that is supported by a majority of the extant texts. In this case, the opposite was done. One exception to the rule is to use an alternate translation if it is reliable and older than the majority of the texts--the reasoning being that older texts are closer to the original autographs, and therefore more accurate. There is debate among the scholars regarding whether this is a good practice, or not, it it explains several of the differences amoung modern translations. Not sure if this was why the alternate translation was chosen in this case. It's worthy of further inquiry. Perhaps one of us should write a letter to the publishers of the NIV asking them to explain?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

This is one of the best known biblical contradictions regarding the fate of Judas. Please don't say it's a mistranslation.

Regards

Grimesy

Yes, I'm familiar with this one. The first passage explains the method he used for his own demise. The second explains the result of his demise: No one cut his body down, so it decayed and the corpse fell free from the rope and burst when it hit the ground (pretty graphic, I'd say). The inference: He died alone, with no one who cared enough to give him a decent burial.

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(July 18, 2012 at 1:05 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote:

(July 18, 2012 at 1:00 pm)spockrates Wrote: There are errors in translation, yes. One should be wary of these and take steps to avoid being misinformed by them. Comparing different versions (as was done in the example) is one way. The question to ask is how prevalent are these? Are they rare, or are they found everywhere throughout the text?

The argument biblical scholars make for the reliability of the text is that there are thousands of extant manuscripts (MSS), so the errors are easier for them to spot and weed out, than they are for other ancient texts. An error found in 20 MSS might not be present in 2,000 others.

Not sure what you mean by errors that are not obvious. Do you mean errors that are unknown, or errors that are known only by a few, or errors that are believed to be errors by some but rejected by many?

Are you saying that there does not exist a bible that is free from errors or mistranslation ?

Regards

Grimesy

I'd say modern translations (such as the NIV) are based on the most recent scholarship, and therefore less prone to mistranslation. But yes, I would not go so far as to say any translation is 100% free of error.

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(July 18, 2012 at 12:50 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote:

(July 15, 2012 at 4:16 pm)spockrates Wrote: I'm wondering whether there are any biblical passages that contradict one another. Please provide two contradictory passages for discussion and explain why they result in a contradiction. Thanks.

Here's another one about Jesus's last words :-

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I think that's enough examples now, but there are many more I'm sure.

Regards

Grimesy

Notice that Matthew writes, "...and when he cried again," he does not indicate what Jesus said when he cried out the last time. John, also does not indicate whether or not Jesus said anything after he said, "It is finished." Luke is the only one who appears to be saying that the words he quotes were the last words of Christ. It is quite possible that Jesus spoke all of these words while suffering his prolonged execution.

(July 18, 2012 at 1:08 pm)spockrates Wrote:

(July 18, 2012 at 12:36 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

This is one of the best known biblical contradictions regarding the fate of Judas. Please don't say it's a mistranslation.

Regards

Grimesy

Yes, I'm familiar with this one. The first passage explains the method he used for his own demise. The second explains the result of his demise: No one cut his body down, so it decayed and the corpse fell free from the rope and burst when it hit the ground (pretty graphic, I'd say). The inference: He died alone, with no one who cared enough to give him a decent burial.

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(July 18, 2012 at 1:05 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: Are you saying that there does not exist a bible that is free from errors or mistranslation ?

Regards

Grimesy

I'd say modern translations (such as the NIV) are based on the most recent scholarship, and therefore less prone to mistranslation. But yes, I would not go so far as to say any translation is 100% free of error.

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(July 18, 2012 at 12:50 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: Here's another one about Jesus's last words :-

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I think that's enough examples now, but there are many more I'm sure.

Regards

Grimesy

Notice that Matthew writes, "...and when he cried again," he does not indicate what Jesus said when he cried out the last time. John, also does not indicate whether or not Jesus said anything after he said, "It is finished." Luke is the only one who appears to be saying that the words he quotes were the last words of Christ. It is quite possible that Jesus spoke all of these words while suffering his prolonged execution.

Yes I can accept that there is a version of events you can construct that the 2 verses about Judas can be shoehorned into.

Can you do the same with the 3 versions of Jesus's last words. ? (I will allow you the argument that Matthew and Luke could be reconciled)

Regards

Grimesy

(July 18, 2012 at 10:21 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: 2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Regards

Grimesy

2 Chronicles 36:5 says, "Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem eleven years." Going back to the original Hebrew, this would be "ruled until his eleventh year" or ten years plus a number of months. It has therefore been suggested that Jehoiachin was appointed king at eight by Josiah. Josiah was a godly man who hoped grandson Jehoiachin would turn out better than his wicked sons. However, sticking to an OT theme, the people decided to go against his wishes. They placed instead Josiah's twenty three year old son Jehoahaz. He ruled three months. Jehoiakim ruled 10 years and some months. Jehoiachin began ruling, at last, in his 18th year. (We know he was 18 because he had wives in Babylon.)

This explanation is not conclusive, but it makes sense given the context. Biblical scribes left the "discrepancy" for a reason. I will not be heartbroken if you prove me wrong, however.

Quote:My apologies for offending you. Perhaps I misunderstood? Please provide the two verses you believe contradict one another so we may discuss them together.

I'm not your fucking secretary. Go back and find them. They are right in this thread.

(July 18, 2012 at 12:36 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

This is one of the best known biblical contradictions regarding the fate of Judas. Please don't say it's a mistranslation.

Regards

Grimesy

It is commonly thought that Judas impaled himself on his sword, since "hang" and "impale" are the same word. It was a common form of suicide. The word for "hang by the neck" did not come about until 1400 AD.

(July 18, 2012 at 1:33 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 18, 2012 at 10:21 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: 2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Regards

Grimesy

2 Chronicles 36:5 says, "Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem eleven years." Going back to the original Hebrew, this would be "ruled until his eleventh year" or ten years plus a number of months. It has therefore been suggested that Jehoiachin was appointed king at eight by Josiah. Josiah was a godly man who hoped grandson Jehoiachin would turn out better than his wicked sons. However, sticking to an OT theme, the people decided to go against his wishes. They placed instead Josiah's twenty three year old son Jehoahaz. He ruled three months. Jehoiakim ruled 10 years and some months. Jehoiachin began ruling, at last, in his 18th year. (We know he was 18 because he had wives in Babylon.)

This explanation is not conclusive, but it makes sense given the context. Biblical scribes left the "discrepancy" for a reason. I will not be heartbroken if you prove me wrong, however.

Sorry Undeceived. I have stared and stared at this but I cannot make sense of it. If "going back to the original Hebrew" results in a passage that has, at best, different words, and at worst a different meaning, then why isn't the whole bible just re-translated from the original Hebrew.

Regards

Grimesy

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(July 18, 2012 at 1:51 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 18, 2012 at 12:36 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

This is one of the best known biblical contradictions regarding the fate of Judas. Please don't say it's a mistranslation.

Regards

Grimesy

It is commonly thought that Judas impaled himself on his sword, since "hang" and "impale" are the same word. It was a common form of suicide. The word for "hang by the neck" did not come about until 1400 AD.

Explain "hang" and "impale" are the same word. Death by hanging was a common form of suicide in the ancient world ref. Sophocles play Artigone and 2 Samuel 17:23 "And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose and got him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulcher of his father."
Are you saying there was no word for hang in biblical times and the word for "impale" had to cover 2 meanings ?

Regards

Grimesy