(August 22, 2012 at 9:32 am)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote: Now God, being a precog, knows his own decision before he makes it. Does that mean God never made a choice?

Yes, it does actually.

I know my decision before I make it. Does that mean I never made a choice?
If yes, case closed.
If no, then tell me: at what point is a decision made? During the resulting action, or in a state of mind?

(August 22, 2012 at 1:44 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Yep, they DID eat the fruit, and get exiled and cursed for doing something they couldn't know was wrong before they did it.

The point was not that they didn't know it was wrong (though God's command should have conveyed that). The point is the Devil tempted them saying, "you will be like God." In the moment before eating the fruit, their hearts became greedy. They no longer thought of God, but themselves, seeking to reach the level of God--to be autonomous, answerable to no one. They chose selfishness over love. Thus, they could no longer be in God's presence, since God is love. Righteousness isn't what you do, it's who you are.

(August 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: I know my decision before I make it. Does that mean I never made a choice?

I think you overestimate your ability to predict even your own "decisions". Are you precognitive? Would you like to put your ability to the test?

Quote:If yes, case closed.
If no, then tell me: at what point is a decision made? During the resulting action, or in a state of mind?

At that point which has absolutely no ability to alter the requirements of precognition no matter how many times you ask. No....decisions......are.......made. Say it until it sinks in. I'm not interested in allowing you to ignore the very problem you have insisted upon creating.

Re: Undeceived - Utter crap. Sorry, but I have to call 'em as I see 'em. It wasn't until that single, almost throwaway line in Rev. 12:9 about "that old serpent" that the Eden snake was ever considered to be the Devil anyway. The story makes extremely little prima facie sense as it is, but what sense there can be extracted from it goes right out of the window if you try to overanalyse it the way you're trying to do. Remember that the Eden serpent was 'punished' by being condemned to crawl on its belly and eat dirt etc, which is a reasonable Bronze-age rationalisation for why snakes have no legs (though they still have the remnants of hips where legs were once attached). On the other hand, it's a pretty stupid depiction of the Devil, who is generally and traditionally shown with horns and cloven hooves.

Did Satan manage to overcome his belly-crawling punishment? If so, then YHWH's curses are obviously not as permanent as we might be led to believe and maybe our own 'curses' can be, or have been, lifted.

Besides which, the story is blatantly clear on the whole point regarding the fruit and the trees - one set gave "knowledge of good and evil", which is necessary in order to know what is and isn't morally correct and which YHWH clearly warned would result in A&E's death - not "you will eventually come to the end of your life" but "On the day ye eat the fruit thereof ye shall die". Clearly a lie since they lived long enough to be banished from Eden before they could eat of the tree of life; a possibility which clearly scared the shit out of the astonishingly un-prescient YHWH. In other words, the serpent - Satan if your beliefs are so weak you really need to insist the point - told the truth and YHWH lied. QED, I'm afraid. You can't eat your cake and still have it on your plate; it's not a Schrödinger's Cake.

(August 22, 2012 at 7:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(August 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: I know my decision before I make it. Does that mean I never made a choice?

I think you overestimate your ability to predict even your own "decisions". Are you precognitive? Would you like to put your ability to the test?

I knew my decision before I made it because I knew my state of mind. I knew, for example, I don’t like to spend lots of money on luxury. So I’m not going to buy a Lexus. The only reason my self-precognition is limited is because I lack full knowledge of all the variables. If I could read other people’s states of mind, and know the clockwork of the universe, all scientific laws and the location of every object, I could predict the future myself--assuming I had the IQ to hold it all. A Precog may work the same way. They know your state of mind, personality, situation, ect. so they can predict your choice without your actually making it.

(August 22, 2012 at 8:02 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(August 22, 2012 at 7:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I think you overestimate your ability to predict even your own "decisions". Are you precognitive? Would you like to put your ability to the test?

I knew my decision before I made it because I knew my state of mind. I knew, for example, I don’t like to spend lots of money on luxury. So I’m not going to buy a Lexus. The only reason my self-precognition is limited is because I lack full knowledge of all the variables. If I could read other people’s states of mind, and know the clockwork of the universe, all scientific laws and the location of every object, I could predict the future myself--assuming I had the IQ to hold it all. A Precog may work the same way. They know your state of mind, personality, situation, ect. so they can predict your choice without your actually making it.

Judging by this alone you clearly understand the concept. Now that I know you understand I don't want to see any weaseling or repetition of questions already answered. Not that I haven;t already addressed this response as well. No matter how the precog manages to experience the future, no matter what means are employed, it is a requirement of precognition that events be predestined. There is no room for choice in this clockwork universe occupied by a precog...and even if the universe were not occupied by a precog..if it were even possible to have knowledge of the future, there would still be no room left for "choice".

You desire a clockwork universe filled with choices (and subsequent consequence). When's the last time you held a clock responsible for the position it's hands were facing at any given moment?

(August 22, 2012 at 7:55 pm)Stimbo Wrote: "On the day ye eat the fruit thereof ye shall die". Clearly a lie since they lived long enough to be banished from Eden

Ephesians 2:1-2 "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient."

Problem is, quantum states are not 'chosen' until and unless one out of the many millions, even infinite, states become real, whereupon all the other possible states collapse and cease to exist. In other words, until you knew your decision, there was no way for you to know your decision. Your mind had many different options from which to choose, depending on the situation, but since you cannot consciously know your state of mind to the extent that you could predict the decision it would eventually make, you could not possibly know your decision. That's one of the reasons why, to quote the great sage, "always in motion is the future".

Also, Heisenberg showed that you cannot know everything about a particle simultaneously; you can know its position but not its velocity and vice versa, but the mere act of observing the one will affect the other in unpredictable ways. So it is fundamentally impossible to know all the variables.

---

(August 22, 2012 at 8:08 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(August 22, 2012 at 7:55 pm)Stimbo Wrote: "On the day ye eat the fruit thereof ye shall die". Clearly a lie since they lived long enough to be banished from Eden

Ephesians 2:1-2 "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient."

Cool story, bro. Ever read any Ray Bradbury? Regardless, is that taken out of context as we are accused of doing, or is there some actual point you wish to make? Or both?

Quote:It is entirely possible that your mother fucked a goat and through a never observed or reproduced process gave you birth.

Well, no it isn't actually,

But THIS is: (right at the end)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSo0duY7-9s

(August 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(August 22, 2012 at 1:44 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Yep, they DID eat the fruit, and get exiled and cursed for doing something they couldn't know was wrong before they did it.

The point was not that they didn't know it was wrong (though God's command should have conveyed that). The point is the Devil tempted them saying, "you will be like God." In the moment before eating the fruit, their hearts became greedy. They no longer thought of God, but themselves, seeking to reach the level of God--to be autonomous, answerable to no one. They chose selfishness over love. Thus, they could no longer be in God's presence, since God is love. Righteousness isn't what you do, it's who you are.

I have to disagree. The Bible says that a person cannot sin from innocence. I think their "sin" was one of shame and blame. They became ashamed of their natural bodies, hid from God, and blamed everyone except for themselves.

Did the Earth magically change at that point? I doubt it. All that changed was Adam and Eve's percetion of ALL THAT WAS GOOD to an awareness of good/evil, pleasure/pain, joy/sorrow, etc...

They started to be aware of things that were not... I.E. not clothed, not their fault, not simply life but a new awareness of duallity, the created and the non-existent.

have fun attempting to ridicule that...

(August 22, 2012 at 10:41 pm)catfish Wrote: have fun attempting to ridicule that...

Ok:



Did you enjoy that? I've got plenty more...