Jesus could never be god, becuase god is everything and jesus was a man.

(August 31, 2012 at 10:33 am)Abel Wrote: Actually there are several verses that confirm the Deity of Christ:
Peter affirms Jesus' deity: Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

No, in Jewish understanding, the Messiah or Christ is NEVER divine. It's a later Christian idea that the Messiah or Christ is divine.

Quote:Demons admit Jesus was God: Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Same argument. Christ or messiah is never divine. The term "Son of God" is used in the OT and NOT ONCE is it used to denote divinity.

Quote:Jesus, Himself, said He was God: Mark 14:61-62 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Same point. You are wrong. Jesus did not claim to be God at all.

(August 31, 2012 at 10:33 am)Abel Wrote:

(August 31, 2012 at 10:15 am)greneknight Wrote: No. You've got to stretch the word a mile long. Name me one. In St John's Gospel, which was written MUCH later and the church had time to form its theology, the divinity assertion suddenly becomes forceful.

Actually there are several verses that confirm the Deity of Christ:
Peter affirms Jesus' deity: Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Demons admit Jesus was God: Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Jesus, Himself, said He was God: Mark 14:61-62 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Before any of this becomes meaningful, there's some things that need to be established, namely, that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were indeed the people who wrote the Gospels attributed to them. The problem is that the only proof for this comes from 'tradition'. If we're being specific, then tradition actually means to say that the Gospels never get quoted by name until 185 C.E. No early church father ever refers to the four Gospel authors by name. In other words, they're written anonymously, with the first one (Mark) heavily using the OT as the source for Jesus' life. Somewhere in this thread I gave 3 examples of details about the crucifixion that came straight from Psalm 22 (e.g. The last words of Jesus came from Psalm 22:1).

The Gospels cannot be used to prove any detail of a human by the name of Jesus until evidence shows they are genuine history.

Matthew did meet Jesus. He was one of His disciples.

(August 31, 2012 at 10:53 am)Abel Wrote: Matthew did meet Jesus. He was one of His disciples.

You meant to say Apostle.

Matthew 9:9
9As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him.

Oh? Third person?

(August 31, 2012 at 10:47 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

(August 31, 2012 at 10:33 am)Abel Wrote: Actually there are several verses that confirm the Deity of Christ:
Peter affirms Jesus' deity: Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Demons admit Jesus was God: Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Jesus, Himself, said He was God: Mark 14:61-62 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Before any of this becomes meaningful, there's some things that need to be established, namely, that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were indeed the people who wrote the Gospels attributed to them. The problem is that the only proof for this comes from 'tradition'. If we're being specific, then tradition actually means to say that the Gospels never get quoted by name until 185 C.E. No early church father ever refers to the four Gospel authors by name. In other words, they're written anonymously, with the first one (Mark) heavily using the OT as the source for Jesus' life. Somewhere in this thread I gave 3 examples of details about the crucifixion that came straight from Psalm 22 (e.g. The last words of Jesus came from Psalm 22:1).

The Gospels cannot be used to prove any detail of a human by the name of Jesus until evidence shows they are genuine history.

That’s not true. Papias of Hierapolis confirmed Matthew as the author attributed to him. Irenaeus and Papias both endorsed Mark as the Gospel writer. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian, all believed that the Gospel of Luke was written by Luke. Polycarp was an actual disciple of John. There is evidence for authorship of the Gospels.

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(August 31, 2012 at 10:46 am)greneknight Wrote:

(August 31, 2012 at 10:33 am)Abel Wrote: Actually there are several verses that confirm the Deity of Christ:
Peter affirms Jesus' deity: Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

No, in Jewish understanding, the Messiah or Christ is NEVER divine. It's a later Christian idea that the Messiah or Christ is divine.

Quote:Demons admit Jesus was God: Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Same argument. Christ or messiah is never divine. The term "Son of God" is used in the OT and NOT ONCE is it used to denote divinity.

Quote:Jesus, Himself, said He was God: Mark 14:61-62 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Same point. You are wrong. Jesus did not claim to be God at all.

You obviously do not know Greek or Hebrew. In most of the O.T. the “sons of God” referred to angels. However, in the book of Daniel, there is a direct reference to a Holy “Son of God” which means exactly what it says.

Now, in the N.T. the reference to the Christ or Messiah was a reference to the Anointed One which would come directly from God. The demons clearly state that Jesus was God in the flesh. When asked if He was the Son of God, Jesus replied “I am”. This is interesting because this was the exact term God identified Himself to Moses. He said “I Am” hath sent thee.

Even the religious leaders understood Jesus claimed to be God: John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

No, I am not wrong.

Abel Wrote:That’s not true. Papias of Hierapolis confirmed Matthew as the author attributed to him. Irenaeus and Papias both endorsed Mark as the Gospel writer. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian, all believed that the Gospel of Luke was written by Luke. Polycarp was an actual disciple of John. There is evidence for authorship of the Gospels.

Origen was born in 185 C.E. therefore not useful against my argument. Tertullian's major works were composed in 207 C.E. therefore not useful either. Clement's earliest work was written in 195 therefore also not useful. That leaves us with Papias which I'm not familiar with. I'll have to do some reading on him.

What about Polycarp? Did he mention anything about his master's work?

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Oh woops, I forgot about Irenaeus, which is actually who I believe mentioned the Gospels by name for the first time in 185 C.E.

Let me ask you this...where is your evidence that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not the authors? Where are the writings of late first century or early second century witnesses that could refute the authorship of these men? There is not one shred of evidence that refutes the Gospel authorship from the period they were written. It was hundreds of years after being accepted that there was any serious questions concerning their penmen.

CBA222, good to see you're not a hit-and-run.

My impression is you're a high school student. Would you mind mentioning your age? I'm not out to discredit you on what you have to say, your age is irrelevant to the merits of your argument.

However, you might get more gentle handling regarding personal remarks if people realize you're a lot younger than most of the rest of us.

(August 31, 2012 at 10:38 am)Abel Wrote: I am a born again Christian.

Excuse my ignorance, but.... What is this "born gain" thing?