(September 1, 2012 at 8:43 pm)Stimbo Wrote: He's got a point there, Nap.

No he hasn't;that is just a facile ad hominem.

That some atheists,including my good self, are arrogant is irrelevant to the validity of any position or argument.

I was taking the ironic route, to be honest, preferring to take the comment in the spirit in which I prefer to believe it was intended. Though if you like, you'll notice I didn't say where he had the point; it could have been under his hat for all anyone knows.

(September 1, 2012 at 11:53 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Though if you like, you'll notice I didn't say where he had the point; it could have been under his hat for all anyone knows.

This is certainly a valid inference that can be made from what I said.

Quote:it could have been under his hat for all anyone knows.

Ah, as in pointy little head,agreed

God is not compelled to know everything at all times.
It's an ABILITY which He has at His own will whenever He wants.
...a bit like the ability to fast forward to the end of the movie.

But why would God want to do that after He gave us free will on purpose? Might not God be more interested in what we actually choose? (Excited to see what happens perhaps?)

Remember, who else but God can afford NOT to worry about the free will choices we might make.

(September 2, 2012 at 3:36 am)Lion IRC Wrote: God is not compelled to know everything at all times.
It's an ABILITY which He has at His own will whenever He wants.
...a bit like the ability to fast forward to the end of the movie.

But why would God want to do that after He gave us free will on purpose? Might not God be more interested in what we actually choose? (Excited to see what happens perhaps?)

Remember, who else but God can afford NOT to worry about the free will choices we might make.

You're just letting your imagination run wild aren't you?

While we are all playing make believe I'll be a pirate! Arrrrrrrrrr.

Quote:While we are all playing make believe I'll be a pirate! Arrrrrrrrrr.

May I please be a cowboy? I like cowboys;they get to shoot Indians and punch horses..

Have wild guess who gets to the indian.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8cDfnQD0ws

(September 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm)spockrates Wrote: But regarding the voting illustration, please explain how it is analogous to omniscience and freewill. I'm not sure I see the connection, yet.

I do not think there is a connection, the answer to the free will problem was answered in Genesis, the answer came when Adam and Eve chose the fruit over obedience to God. The only true free will man has is to chose to love God or reject Him, this is the example that was laid out for us in Genesis when Adam and Eve rejected God and chose knowledge to be God's equal. When they acquired the knowledge, they understood they could never be God's equal and for the first time feared God because they understood His true greatness and righteousness. This is why they were hiding from God and God called out to them in compassion, He knew (omniscience) what had happened, He knew even before they made their choice. Anything outside our choice to love or reject God we have only limited freedom, God is in control of His creation. With the free will to chose or reject God, we have many choices to make during our lives and the closer we grow to God the less those choices become, necessarily. So God can be and is omniscient and we have the free will He intended for us to have. If we had total free will God would not be in control of His creation, the example of that is Adam and Eve, they in one moment screwed it all up, what would happen if God continued to allow man to do as he please, flood the world?

(September 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm)spockrates Wrote: But regarding the voting illustration, please explain how it is analogous to omniscience and freewill. I'm not sure I see the connection, yet.

---

(September 1, 2012 at 11:01 pm)idunno Wrote: Theological discussions are fine by me.

However I don't think one needs to go that route to refute Theological Fatalism. All that is required is to show that the principle of alternative possibilities isn't necessary for free will.

Well, I'm not trying to refute anyone, except perhaps myself! I am trying to understand why others believe and question why they believe to see if why they believe is why I should question why I believe so that I might believe why they believe, too.



But please elaborate on why alternative possibilities are unnecessary for one to be free. Or perhaps it will help if I give a simple example and you explain how the one making the free choice had no alternative.

Young Spock! WHY do you NEED to be part of the herd
/ hive mind?

Also, WHY do you question? If not for the FACT that the current answers do not fit with YOUR observations?

I would hazard young Spock... that you have come to the conclusion that religion is not only man-made and detrimental to the progress of society (as a global whole) but is also filled with such childish fantasies that you yourself left behind along with your teddy, Santa and security blanket many ages ago (ok, then maybe a few years ago) And there fore an illogical position to maintain in the face of evidence to the contrary.

(September 1, 2012 at 11:25 pm)idunno Wrote: Sure my pointy eared Christian friend but I need a break from the computer so I'm logging off after this post. If you're still hazy I encourage you to take a look at the thread I started which may clear up other questions you have before asking another here. I'm glad to answer them.

If God infallibly knows that I will vote democrat, then I can't actually vote republican. If I were to vote republican, than God would've known I voted republican rather than democrat. To the point, whatever I vote, He knows. Therefore I can't vote otherwise. It's being suggested that if I can't vote otherwise it's not really a choice because there is only one option.

Similarly, Mr. Whites device removes the possibility of voting republican. Should Donald want to vote republican the device is activated forcing him to vote democrat. However in the analogy, Donald freely chooses to vote democrat without the coercion of the device. Thus showing that even though there may be one thing you can actually do in light of God's foreknowledge, it doesn't follow that you didn't freely make that choice.

live long, and prosper.

Yes, I understand, idunno. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

---

(September 2, 2012 at 4:36 am)padraic Wrote:

Quote:While we are all playing make believe I'll be a pirate! Arrrrrrrrrr.

May I please be a cowboy? I like cowboys;they get to shoot Indians and punch horses..

Watch yourself. I hear the Amish owner of that beast has a gun and knows how to use it!