(September 1, 2012 at 11:36 pm)padraic Wrote: No he hasn't;that is just a facile ad hominem.

That some atheists,including my good self, are arrogant is irrelevant to the validity of any position or argument.

Eh, he was just joking Pad

(September 2, 2012 at 5:12 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

(September 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm)spockrates Wrote: But regarding the voting illustration, please explain how it is analogous to omniscience and freewill. I'm not sure I see the connection, yet.

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Well, I'm not trying to refute anyone, except perhaps myself! I am trying to understand why others believe and question why they believe to see if why they believe is why I should question why I believe so that I might believe why they believe, too.



But please elaborate on why alternative possibilities are unnecessary for one to be free. Or perhaps it will help if I give a simple example and you explain how the one making the free choice had no alternative.

Young Spock! WHY do you NEED to be part of the herd
/ hive mind?

Also, WHY do you question? If not for the FACT that the current answers do not fit with YOUR observations?

I would hazard young Spock... that you have come to the conclusion that religion is not only man-made and detrimental to the progress of society (as a global whole) but is also filled with such childish fantasies that you yourself left behind along with your teddy, Santa and security blanket many ages ago (ok, then maybe a few years ago) And there fore an illogical position to maintain in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Yes, you've found me out! It's illogical, I admit. But tribbles are so--alluring.

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(September 2, 2012 at 4:51 am)Godschild Wrote:

(September 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm)spockrates Wrote: But regarding the voting illustration, please explain how it is analogous to omniscience and freewill. I'm not sure I see the connection, yet.

I do not think there is a connection, the answer to the free will problem was answered in Genesis, the answer came when Adam and Eve chose the fruit over obedience to God. The only true free will man has is to chose to love God or reject Him, this is the example that was laid out for us in Genesis when Adam and Eve rejected God and chose knowledge to be God's equal. When they acquired the knowledge, they understood they could never be God's equal and for the first time feared God because they understood His true greatness and righteousness. This is why they were hiding from God and God called out to them in compassion, He knew (omniscience) what had happened, He knew even before they made their choice. Anything outside our choice to love or reject God we have only limited freedom, God is in control of His creation. With the free will to chose or reject God, we have many choices to make during our lives and the closer we grow to God the less those choices become, necessarily. So God can be and is omniscient and we have the free will He intended for us to have. If we had total free will God would not be in control of His creation, the example of that is Adam and Eve, they in one moment screwed it all up, what would happen if God continued to allow man to do as he please, flood the world?

Thanks, GC. Good to hear from you again, my friend!

I believe the argument is this: Since God knew ahead of time that Eve would choose to take a bite, she could never choose to not take a bite. For if she did instead choose to abstain from biting, then what God saw would happen would actually not be what happened. So our idea and that he is omniscient would prove to be not real, but imagined.

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GC:

So there was quite a bit of discussion about what omniscience means. It turns out that several believed the word to mean this:

Omniscience ( /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/[1]), mainly in religion, is actually knowing everything that there is to know.

But the definition I found many thoughtful Christians hold is this:

Omniscience ( /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/[1]), mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know.

Having the capacity to know is not the same as actually knowing. You know?

So let us apply the second idea to Eve taking a bite out of sin: It is possible that God might have known ahead of time that Eve would have the choice to bite, or not to bite. It's also possible God would have had the choice to see, or not to see Eve's decision. So God, abstaining from knowing ahead of time would not know ahead of time whether she took a bite, or abstained. Thus, Eve's decision was still free.

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Now, Rhythm tells me I'm wrong, and says that God's knowing she might bite, or might not bite is all he needs to know to destroy her freedom to choose. I'm still waiting for him to explain why he believes this. It seems to me that if I'm understanding him correctly, then no one is free--whether God exists, or not. For one does not need to be omniscient to see when someone has a choice to make.

So it seems like God is benevolent. He knew we would fall but he did nothing to avoid that even though he's omnipotent.

(September 2, 2012 at 8:03 am)spockrates Wrote:

(September 1, 2012 at 11:25 pm)idunno Wrote: Sure my pointy eared Christian friend but I need a break from the computer so I'm logging off after this post. If you're still hazy I encourage you to take a look at the thread I started which may clear up other questions you have before asking another here. I'm glad to answer them.

If God infallibly knows that I will vote democrat, then I can't actually vote republican. If I were to vote republican, than God would've known I voted republican rather than democrat. To the point, whatever I vote, He knows. Therefore I can't vote otherwise. It's being suggested that if I can't vote otherwise it's not really a choice because there is only one option.

Similarly, Mr. Whites device removes the possibility of voting republican. Should Donald want to vote republican the device is activated forcing him to vote democrat. However in the analogy, Donald freely chooses to vote democrat without the coercion of the device. Thus showing that even though there may be one thing you can actually do in light of God's foreknowledge, it doesn't follow that you didn't freely make that choice.

live long, and prosper.

Yes, I understand, idunno. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Do you understand why Theological Fatalism fails, or that my brain was tired?

(September 2, 2012 at 9:48 am)FallentoReason Wrote: So it seems like God is benevolent. He knew we would fall but he did nothing to avoid that even though he's omnipotent.

Please show me where in scriptures you find that God is omnibenevolent.

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@ Spokerates, that's interesting, but I'm pretty sue it can not apply to God. I see a couple of problems with having the capacity of omniscience and not using it. First we need to go back a little farther than Adam and Eve, we need to go back to Lucifer's fall. When this took place and God did not see it coming, do you believe God would not have used His omniscience to defeat Lucifer, and once used He would know all.
Second why would God decide not to use one of His attributes, if He had to make a decision not to use it would He not have to use it to make that decision. I can not see anyway He couldn't use His omniscience if He had to make a decision not to use it. For man to have complete free will through out his life, God could never use His omniscience and the scriptures show that He does. Prophecy proves this. God would also have to use His omniscience to create a universe.

Good to be back my friend, though I will not be as active as I have been, life just woks out things sometimes, actually it's God who works out things in my life.

(September 2, 2012 at 8:23 am)Napoléon Wrote:

(September 1, 2012 at 11:36 pm)padraic Wrote: No he hasn't;that is just a facile ad hominem.

That some atheists,including my good self, are arrogant is irrelevant to the validity of any position or argument.

Eh, he was just joking Pad

Oh,how was I meant to know?

(September 2, 2012 at 9:48 am)FallentoReason Wrote: So it seems like God is benevolent. He knew we would fall but he did nothing to avoid that even though he's omnipotent.

Good suggestion! What should God have done to keep Adam, Eve, you and I from doing anything immoral?

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(September 2, 2012 at 3:33 pm)idunno Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 8:03 am)spockrates Wrote: Yes, I understand, idunno. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Do you understand why Theological Fatalism fails, or that my brain was tired?

I think the difficulty I have is seeing how the analogy applies. Watching someone who is about to make a decision in the present is not the same as seeing what someone will do in the future, I'm told.

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(September 3, 2012 at 1:49 am)Godschild Wrote: @ Spokerates, that's interesting, but I'm pretty sue it can not apply to God. I see a couple of problems with having the capacity of omniscience and not using it. First we need to go back a little farther than Adam and Eve, we need to go back to Lucifer's fall. When this took place and God did not see it coming, do you believe God would not have used His omniscience to defeat Lucifer, and once used He would know all.
Second why would God decide not to use one of His attributes, if He had to make a decision not to use it would He not have to use it to make that decision. I can not see anyway He couldn't use His omniscience if He had to make a decision not to use it. For man to have complete free will through out his life, God could never use His omniscience and the scriptures show that He does. Prophecy proves this. God would also have to use His omniscience to create a universe.

Good to be back my friend, though I will not be as active as I have been, life just woks out things sometimes, actually it's God who works out things in my life.

Well, I suppose it could be inaccurate for some atheists to say that seeing what decisions we will make in the future will eliminate our freedom to make those decisions freely in the present. It's a concept I don't quite understand, but was willing to accept for the sake of discussion.

Do you think their premise that omniscience and freewill cannot coexist is correct? If so, do you consider yourself a Calvinist?

Spock, it's really quite simple so you're most likely over thinking it

The two scenarios are similar in that they both remove the possibility to choose otherwise.

Mr. White's device removes the possibility of voting republican. Likewise God's omniscience removes the possibility of voting republican (if He foreknew that you would vote democrat).

Since, in Frankfurt's scenario, Donald votes democrat of his own free will without the device being activated, we realize that free choices can be made in the absence of multiple choices. Therefore, God's omniscience of our future choices doesn't remove free will.

(September 2, 2012 at 8:37 am)spockrates Wrote: Now, Rhythm tells me I'm wrong, and says that God's knowing she might bite, or might not bite is all he needs to know to destroy her freedom to choose. I'm still waiting for him to explain why he believes this. It seems to me that if I'm understanding him correctly, then no one is free--whether God exists, or not. For one does not need to be omniscient to see when someone has a choice to make.

I've already explained this to you dozens of times. If one's actions -can be known- regardless of whether they are known (or how they can be known, or by whom they can be known, or from what vantage point they can be known) then the events of the future are predestined, and not subject to choice, no matter how compelling the illusion may be to we mere mortals. Precognition, even in principle, requires knowledge. Not a guess, not a really good chance, knowledge. If anything knows what you will do, or could know what you will do, then your actions are set, fixed, determined, -not subject to choice-. When presented with even a simple "choice" between A or B it will go one way only, and it could go no other way.

Correct, once we invoke precognition, by anyone, anything, anyhow -even in principle- "no one is free".

Your constant requests to have this explained are extremely disingenuous. I'm done with you, enjoy talking to yourself. I know I have /sarcasm.

(September 3, 2012 at 8:15 am)spockrates Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 1:49 am)Godschild Wrote:

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@ Spokerates, that's interesting, but I'm pretty sue it can not apply to God. I see a couple of problems with having the capacity of omniscience and not using it. First we need to go back a little farther than Adam and Eve, we need to go back to Lucifer's fall. When this took place and God did not see it coming, do you believe God would not have used His omniscience to defeat Lucifer, and once used He would know all.
Second why would God decide not to use one of His attributes, if He had to make a decision not to use it would He not have to use it to make that decision. I can not see anyway He couldn't use His omniscience if He had to make a decision not to use it. For man to have complete free will through out his life, God could never use His omniscience and the scriptures show that He does. Prophecy proves this. God would also have to use His omniscience to create a universe.

Good to be back my friend, though I will not be as active as I have been, life just woks out things sometimes, actually it's God who works out things in my life.

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Well, I suppose it could be inaccurate for some atheists to say that seeing what decisions we will make in the future will eliminate our freedom to make those decisions freely in the present. It's a concept I don't quite understand, but was willing to accept for the sake of discussion.

Do you think their premise that omniscience and freewill cannot coexist is correct? If so, do you consider yourself a Calvinist?

No, they are not correct, God is omniscient and we have free will. Like I said, the only decision we make that is of complete free will is to accept God or reject God. The rest is up to God, sometimes He will allow us to chose what we desire and other times God will sway our decision for His will. This is why God's omniscience is so effective for all man kind. and why He has chosen to work through man. It doesn't matter whether God knows the future, we can chose sometimes and sometimes God sway us to make certain decisions and in both cases we do not know whether God intervened or not. Again let me say the only chose that we make of our own free will is salvation. No I'm not a Calvinist.