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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:23 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 3, 2012 at 5:20 pm)idunno Wrote: Haha, I've never argued that you can't make a choice, if that's what you've taken from what I've said you've misunderstood me. My whole point is that a choice does not necessitate alternative options. Yes, you have, every-time you mentioned that some entity had knowledge of future events, including my "choices".
Quote:I suppose implicit in all of this is the distinction between chronological and logical priority. God's foreknowledge is chronologically prior, but my choice is logically prior. His foreknowing doesn't make my choice for me, I do.
No you don't (but to be fair it isn't his knowing that "makes the choice for you" either)- if the events are determined- which they would be- as a prerequisite of knowledge.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:27 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 5:20 pm)idunno Wrote: Haha, I've never argued that you can't make a choice, if that's what you've taken from what I've said you've misunderstood me. My whole point is that a choice does not necessitate alternative options. Yes, you have, every-time you mentioned that some entity had knowledge of future events, including my "choices".
Quote:I suppose implicit in all of this is the distinction between chronological and logical priority. God's foreknowledge is chronologically prior, but my choice is logically prior. His foreknowing doesn't make my choice for me, I do.
No you don't (but to be fair it isn't his knowing that "makes the choice for you" either)- if the events are determined- which they would be- as a prerequisite of knowledge.
Thank you Rhythm, I think you subtly agreed that omniscience doesn't destroy free will! 
Now determinism resulting from environment and such is a whole other can of worms which I haven't been trying to address here.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:31 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
 Omniscience -even in principle- regardless of whether any entity possesses it, eliminates the possibility of free will. The requirements of omnsicience do not allow for chance, choice, or mistakes. Omniscience isn't "choosing things for you" - you aren't making any damned choices..........
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:32 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:34 pm by Mystic.)
Free-will and knowledge of the future is a paradox.
A problem with the OP is in the following:
Donald is a Democrat and is likely to vote for the Democrats; in fact, only in one particular circumstance will he not: that is, if he thinks about the prospects of immediate American defeat in Iraq just prior to voting.
If this is the case, while he does will for democrats, it's not free-will if it's all determined. For example, if he thinks about the prospect about immediate American defeat in Iraq and therefore will definitely not vote for Democrats, then that negates his free-will. Just thinking about the issue will force him to a decision.
If various factors make Donald vote either way - and free-will is not a factor, then there is no free-will.
For free-will to be a factor, you cannot say Donald will vote x given y or t given s, there must be a choice, in which you cannot say he will vote either way and it's not deterministic.
Therefore a problem with your analogy is that it had determinstic view from the start.
Another problem is that it has nothing to do with future knowledge, because, while the device can force the person to stop his free-will decision and will ignoring the whole deterministic part from the start, it cannot have forced the person to originally will either way, only having forced one will AFTER he wills the other way, and in this case, we know his will was originally free but then impeded upon...but the problem with future knowledge is that there is no orginal free-will as in the case of the analogy (ignoring the whole determinstic problem already mentioned).
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:37 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Omniscience -even in principle- regardless of whether any entity possesses it, eliminates the possibility of free will. The requirements of omnsicience do not allow for chance, choice, or mistakes. Omniscience isn't "choosing things for you" - you aren't making any damned choices..........
Now you've simply resorted to asserting this.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
What part of that would you like explained again (you agreed with 2 of the three btw, not but a few posts back, how the third escaped is precisely what I've been trying to find out)?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:40 pm by idunno.)
MysticKnight, I will respond a bit later. Are you one of the resident Christians?
(September 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: What part of that would you like explained again (you agreed with 2 of the three btw, not but a few posts back, how the third escaped is precisely what I've been trying to find out)?
Don't think I won't be back 
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:41 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm)idunno Wrote: MysticKnight, I will respond a bit later. Are you one of the resident Christians?
No I'm a Deist/Pantheist or something close to that.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:41 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm)idunno Wrote: Don't think I won't be back
Do you have a choice?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:42 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:15 pm)idunno Wrote: AITIA, give me a chance to look up this demon of which your speak. Is strictly a deterministic system? Are you affirming that the only way God could know the future is by knowing every cause that preceded an effect?
Here you go:
Marquis Pierre Simon de Laplace Wrote:"We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at any given moment knew all of the forces that animate nature and the mutual positions of the beings that compose it, if this intellect were vast enough to submit the data to analysis, could condense into a single formula the movement of the greatest bodies of the universe and that of the lightest atom; for such an intellect nothing could be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes."
(September 3, 2012 at 5:15 pm)idunno Wrote: That leaves you in the position of substantiating that determinism is true, and that the only way God can know the future is if it is in fact entirely deterministic.
By definition omniscience requires determinism as a prerequisite.
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