(September 13, 2012 at 7:58 am)apophenia Wrote: As a Christian, who is not supposed to bear false witness, tell me truthfully, how many of the essays on the page I referenced did you actually read before dismissing them all as being inadequate and posting your rejection of them? I'm betting that the honest answer to the question is zero. But I'll let you tell us (or lie to us, as there's nothing to prevent you here.... is there?).

I found the couple I read had little to do with the matter at hand. None provided evolutionary reasons in addition to the four Dawkins gave.

Quote:And if morality isn't in the bible or in our genes, then how do we get this morality from God?

Morality is known by an inner sense, conveyed (negatively) by guilt and (positively) by contentment. We can tell the difference between God's morality and evolution's by the mechanisms in place. If morality is linked directly to survival in every phase, it is compatible with evolution. If, however, some completely non-selfish qualities are revealed, we must appeal to a Creator with more than propagation in mind. I don't know if there's a 'morality gene' per se. The human brain remains a mystery to scientists. Everyone has a unique soul not received from parents so it's conceivable morality could also be imparted at conception. The Bible tells us we are not just physical beings but spiritual persons, half of us at home in the body, half yearning for a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ.

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(September 13, 2012 at 8:01 am)genkaus Wrote:

(September 12, 2012 at 9:52 pm)Undeceived Wrote: But the Bible makes it clear: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works." Ephesians 2:8-9

And what did you have to do to get this "gift"?

You have to do nothing, only accept Jesus dying for your sins. Be of a repentant heart.

(September 13, 2012 at 1:26 pm)Undeceived Wrote: We can tell the difference between God's morality and evolution's by the mechanisms in place. If morality is linked directly to survival in every phase, it is compatible with evolution. If, however, some completely non-selfish qualities are revealed, we must appeal to a Creator with more than propagation in mind.

You are free to believe that our conscience and moral compass come from God if you wish. I should like to know how you account for the fact that I am morally aghast as I read the Bible, that this very natural function of my conscience is appalled by all the rape, genocide, slavery, infanticide and other atrocities ordered by or committed by Yahweh, the being you call "God".

(September 13, 2012 at 1:30 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I should like to know how you account for the fact that I am morally aghast as I read the Bible

Where do you get your standard, that you feel you are able to judge morality?

(September 13, 2012 at 1:37 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(September 13, 2012 at 1:30 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I should like to know how you account for the fact that I am morally aghast as I read the Bible

Where do you get your standard, that you feel you are able to judge morality?

Not from your bible.

Where do you get your standard, that you feel you are able to judge that the bible is not a man made, lying, fraudulent, self-serving, rabble (That's you) rousing piece of shit?

(September 13, 2012 at 1:39 pm)Chuck Wrote: Where do you get your standard?

From my conscience, which is confirmed by the Ten Commandments, Luke 10:27, and the love shown in God's sacrifice of His son for our sins. How do you account for these parts of the Bible?

(September 13, 2012 at 1:45 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(September 13, 2012 at 1:39 pm)Chuck Wrote: Where do you get your standard?

From my conscience, which is confirmed by the Ten Commandments, Luke 10:27, and the love shown in God's sacrifice of His son for our sins. How do you account for these parts of the Bible?

Some one made it up.

(September 13, 2012 at 1:37 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Where do you get your standard, that you feel you are able to judge morality?

Reminds me of a quote I heard from an old original series Star Trek episode.

Genocidal Dictator: Who are you to judge me?
Capt. Kirk: Who must I be?

Are you prepared to justify genocide? Slavery? Rape? Human sacrifice? You must be ready to do so if you wish to argue for the morality of Yahweh.

(September 13, 2012 at 8:11 am)greneknight Wrote:

(September 13, 2012 at 7:58 am)apophenia Wrote:


@grene: No, I don't happen to think Vinny is an actual atheist, but I don't really give a shit.

You don't have to tell me. I don't give a shit what you think.

Quote: Anybody, atheist or theist, is free to make whatever argument they want and be judged on the merits of the case they present. This isn't a theistic, tribal society where they must present the correct shibboleth before they are accepted in. Your repeated raising the question of whether Vinny is atheist is both badgering and a personal attack and frankly I'm sick of your shit. Everybody here is free to follow the dictates of their conscience and ye shall know them by their fruits. It's none of your fucking business. You aren't the forum police. Thankfully that job is already in competent hands.

I have every right to point out that Vinny is dishonest in his replies and that he isn't telling the truth. It's none of your bloody business if I write my own observation. Who the hell do you think you are? Thank God you aren't the forum police. I have as much right to express my view that Vinny is not an atheist although he pretends to be and if you don't like reading what I post, you are at liberty to put me on ignore. I don't give a shit what you think. If you are sick, go see a doctor.

Quote: And now in my anger, I've forgotten one of my points.

You don't have to tell us that. We are not interested in what you can remember or can't. Place me on ignore - it's good for your blood pressure. I don't enjoy reading your rant either.

You really make her point for her. You behave like a twerp. You are rude, obnoxious and frankly rather repetitive. I think I'll take up your suggestion and put you on ignore. Think of it as a time out.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:02 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(September 13, 2012 at 1:37 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Where do you get your standard, that you feel you are able to judge morality?

Reminds me of a quote I heard from an old original series Star Trek episode.

Genocidal Dictator: Who are you to judge me?
Capt. Kirk: Who must I be?

Are you prepared to justify genocide? Slavery? Rape? Human sacrifice? You must be ready to do so if you wish to argue for the morality of Yahweh.

Don't forget that all this happened on the OT, the same temporal location as the ten commandments.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:15 pm)whateverist Wrote: You really make her point for her. You behave like a twerp. You are rude, obnoxious and frankly rather repetitive. I think I'll take up your suggestion and put you on ignore. Think of it as a time out.

Like I give a damn. If you ever make a single response to any of my posts, I'll laugh at you and call you a liar.

Sir Greneknight, Knight of the Round Table