(September 16, 2012 at 2:34 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: It would be rather interesting if we could clone ourselves and transplant our brains. That would actually be one of the possible means of immortality...or at least a greatly prolonged life. Can you imagine? Infinitely repeating youth? And hey, when you get bored of it you can just let yourself die!

Scientists! Get on this! I've only got about 60 years left, after all!

That would be a doozy for philosophers to delve over. Would the clone really be 'me?' Our thoughts are effected by more than just our brain; the hormones that come from the various glands about our body all have a significant impact on how we think and feel (Violet and I have had a good amount of experience with that).

There would be a few other concerns, though. If we got a 'redo' on our life, over and over again, how long would it be before we simply couldn't relate with the rest of the people in our lives? If this were widespread enough to be common, there would be worries about over population getting worse than it already is.

(September 16, 2012 at 3:07 pm)TaraJo Wrote: That would be a doozy for philosophers to delve over. Would the clone really be 'me?' Our thoughts are effected by more than just our brain; the hormones that come from the various glands about our body all have a significant impact on how we think and feel (Violet and I have had a good amount of experience with that).

This couldn't be used as a way to prolong life , as the brain deteriorates like any other organ.

I personally think the clone really would be you as all of your personality and memorys come from the brain and although the glands of the body do effect how we feel and thus our behaviour , they can only be experienced through and be over-ridden by , the cognitive core of ourselves , the brain.

What would be interesting , if whether you could mix and match different parts of the brain , from different people and implant that into brainless clone. Say the left side of one person , matched with the right of another . Pure science fiction of coarse , but imagine the left side of Albert Einstein , with the right side of Kurt Cobain . Or what about half Hitler , half Stalin and let WW2 continue in a white , padded cell with a mad man in strait jacket hollering and shreiking away in insanity .

(September 16, 2012 at 3:58 pm)Haydn Wrote:

(September 16, 2012 at 3:07 pm)TaraJo Wrote: That would be a doozy for philosophers to delve over. Would the clone really be 'me?' Our thoughts are effected by more than just our brain; the hormones that come from the various glands about our body all have a significant impact on how we think and feel (Violet and I have had a good amount of experience with that).

This couldn't be used as a way to prolong life , as the brain deteriorates like any other organ.

That statement is half true. Yes, the brain does deteriorate and neurological conditions like alzheimers would still eventually kill you, no matter how much body swapping you did. However, if your body broke down before your brain, if you had a huge, inoperable, malignant tumor or you were in a huge accident or something, yeah, it would still extend your life.

I suppose that line of thought can be expanded on by creating a clone with an incomplete brain and just replacing the part that are breaking down. Or we clone ourselves with the brain in tact so we don't have to transplant, for example, the portions of the brain that control heartbeat or body temperature or breathing or digestion or hormone levels or something. Truth is, there are a lot of parts of our brain that don't really effect our mind.

Wow; this is kinda turning into a discussion for philosophy, isn't it?

(September 16, 2012 at 4:19 pm)TaraJo Wrote: I suppose that line of thought can be expanded on by creating a clone with an incomplete brain and just replacing the part that are breaking down. Or we clone ourselves with the brain in tact so we don't have to transplant, for example, the portions of the brain that control heartbeat or body temperature or breathing or digestion or hormone levels or something. Truth is, there are a lot of parts of our brain that don't really effect our mind.

Wow; this is kinda turning into a discussion for philosophy, isn't it?

Quite right , it would extend your life in those conditions although as you say , not indefinately.

And what you say about creating a clone with an in-complete brain , a sort of spare part version of yourself ..... that really might happen for people rich enough. I mean they are already using stem cells to create different body tissues. Creating organs ( with your own DNA) is a real possible conclusion to this. It certainly would eliminate the risk of organ rejection , but won't come cheap either.

Perhaps a creating 'special lady parts' in this way might be possible eventually and that might make for a far more thorough and satisfying sex change procedure.

It really DOES have the propensity to devolve into philosophy. I say devolve because I'm not a huge fan of philosophy. *lol*

I dunno. Hormonal glands do determine an individual in many ways but from my perspective anyway, a person is not the sum of their memories and emotions and personality but rather just their simple awareness. If their awareness may go that they forget who they once were, do they still change? No, the subjective point of view from that entity still exists. And if you retain your memories, then even more so are you yourself. The collective experiences and emotions are just pieces and add-ons to the whole. After all, I was me when I was still an infant incapable of rendering memory or personality, wasn't I?

Oh boy it is getting into philosophy. D: What have I done?!

(September 16, 2012 at 1:37 pm)TaraJo Wrote: What if they cloned an exact copy of your body except that they built this one with no brain (to remove many of the ethical concerns) and this one had a fully functional female reproductive system. Would you allow a transplant in this case?

No, I would not. And I don't care if a clone *did* have a brain... it isn't ethics stopping me from what I desire. I would never recognize that body as 'me', and I would always be (however irrationally) terrified at the very idea of it.

(September 17, 2012 at 1:39 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote:

(September 16, 2012 at 1:37 pm)TaraJo Wrote: What if they cloned an exact copy of your body except that they built this one with no brain (to remove many of the ethical concerns) and this one had a fully functional female reproductive system. Would you allow a transplant in this case?

No, I would not. And I don't care if a clone *did* have a brain... it isn't ethics stopping me from what I desire. I would never recognize that body as 'me', and I would always be (however irrationally) terrified at the very idea of it.

But that invites new questions.

I'm going to assume you would also object to having your body replaced, piece by piece, until none of the parts left were from your original body, correct? I'm also assuming that you would be ok with routine transplant surgeries such as a heart transplant or a kidney transplant, right? So the question falls somewhere in between the two: at what point have you had so many body parts transplanted onto you that you stop being 'you?'

I took philosophy class last semester and they had a name for this specific dilemma, I just don't remember what it was; I blame my boring-as-all-fuck philosophy professor.

EDIT-Found it! If you want to look up more on that problem, look up Ship of Theseus.

Our bodys are not fixed objects anyway . We are a set of lifeless particles and the arrangement of those , is what makes us . Richard Dawkins decribes us as being more like a wave , particles going in and going out. Over our life times all of these particles are replaced at one time or another. He uses an example of getting you to remember a time when you were a child , by now there won't be one cell of those that hasn't been replaced since then , making us a completely new 'thing' to what once was. I like the wave description , like a wave of energy rippling through the matter of the universe.

(September 17, 2012 at 2:00 pm)TaraJo Wrote: But that invites new questions.

I'm going to assume you would also object to having your body replaced, piece by piece, until none of the parts left were from your original body, correct? I'm also assuming that you would be ok with routine transplant surgeries such as a heart transplant or a kidney transplant, right?

I object to fully replacing my body... small things to fix it sure (vagina, heart transplant, tooth repair) are alright... but after replacing most of the parts of a car, it simply isn't the same car anymore.

Bit by bit we are changing, everything not in stasis changes. Seeds become unrecognizable as trees, become unidentifiable as boards, become unobservable as tables, become fucked up beyond all repair as ashes, and scatter into a million different changing beings. Identity is in turmoil, and at one point I will cease to be me, all of the parts that were me will become something entirely not me.

I like me, so while I can I'd like to change only the bits that challenge my notion of myself. That understanding will change as time goes on, but I currently would not consider a major set of physical replacements to be me. If I lost those body parts in a terrible accident, only *then* would my understanding of the replacement parts be in place.

Quote:So the question falls somewhere in between the two: at what point have you had so many body parts transplanted onto you that you stop being 'you?'

When so much has changed that I have become a new entity. A clone of me is an entirely new entity.

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(September 17, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Haydn Wrote: We are a set of lifeless particles and the arrangement of those , is what makes us.

'We' are an idea, based firmly in the noggin. As is me, us, you... they are all concepts. The cosmos simply is... what it is objectively is unknowable. How it is interpreted? That is up to the beholder.

When you're an old artist like me you will be suprised what you see of yourself.