Okay, all of my answers are going to be from a Biblical perspective just to be clear.

(September 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm)System of Solace Wrote: What did you do? Or did you just think sinful thoughts?

I wasn't a real Christian most of my life. Only the last three years. I am a liar, a cheater, a thief, I was a borderline alcoholic or a few years, I have lived with and slept with a few women before I was married, I sold drugs for a little while....that's the highlights I suppose.

Sin is looked at as starting from the "heart" (the Bible's use of the word heart is usually the same as we would use mind), then once it festers it is manifest in external deeds. Like Jesus' teachings on murder, He says it really starts with anger, a heart condition.

(September 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm)System of Solace Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong: God prohibits even a sinful thought.

You are correct.

(September 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm)System of Solace Wrote: This puts the Christian in a form of submission for his entire life. He/she will never be good, he/she will always be an evil sinner. He/she needs Jesus or he/she will plunge straight to eternal torture and damnation created by God for maybe 50-100 years of a "sinful" life.

Preach it!

(September 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm)System of Solace Wrote: In fact, you could live a live only caring about the well being of others and still go to Hell.

Have mercy preacher!

(September 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm)System of Solace Wrote: Fuck, supposedly even newborns who die from birth complications, aborted babies, and children who die at a very young age never truly "accepted" Jesus.

There are actually different perspectives on this within Christianity. Personally I believe that newborns, aborted babies etc go to heaven.

(September 20, 2012 at 6:44 pm)System of Solace Wrote: And everybody apparently lives every second of their live in sin, so.....they are pretty fucked.

That's right. "This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." -Acts 4;11-12

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: 1: He lived a perfect life, huh? Is that why we only know of about 10% of his life? Is that why there's a ~30 year gap in his life? I get the impression it's because the fiction-writers...er, sorry, the gospel-writers lacked the confidence in their own abilities to write something that could be considered objectively perfect...

That is an interesting theory you have. The Christian belief of Christ's sinlessness comes from scripture though. Scriptures like:

"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you were healed." -1 Peter 2:22-24

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: or maybe the Council of Nicea was not satisfied with their depictions of Christ's "perfect life" and cast them out after realizing that nobody would ever find it to be perfect.

Maybe, this too is an interesting theory. I don't know that there are any contemporary scholars that hold this view.

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: You make the claim; where's the proof? Don't claim to be correcting people when you don't even really give a valid explanation of why it's being corrected. A claim is not a correction; it's a differing of opinion, little more.

Since I'm speaking for Christian beliefs, the proofs as we (Christians) would take them are scripture. I didn't provide scripture with any of the belief statements because I assumed you fellas (and any ladies) would prefer that I left them out.

If there are certain beliefs that you wish to know where they come from scripturally please let me know and I will be happy to oblige.

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: 2: Basically if you "accept Jesus" then you get judged by his works, not your own. And since you can live no perfect life and god apparently only accepts those who lead perfect lives, you can only get into heaven via Jesus, ergo you can be the scummiest human being on earth as long as you accept Jesus, whereas the nicest, kindest, most selfless human being on the planet can be shoved off to burn for eternity because he didn't let his life get judged as Jesus' life, because, heh, only Jesus was perfect, right?

You nailed it. A perfect life is not one in which it is lived for others but a life that is lived for God. The selfless person would still be guilty of sin by trying to live a life apart from God.

The essence of sin is that we choose things, love things, like things, and do things that show we do not value God above those things.

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Basically Jesus SUFFERED for a week for me

Well, the Bible teaches that a transaction happened on the cross and the sins of those that would come to place their faith in Him were paid for.

So if he did die for you, there will be a day when you too will see Jesus as lovely and glorious like I do. Just a matter of time my friend.

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: but his mortal life apparently was never surrendered

Actually it was his mortal life that was surrendered, it was His divine nature that never died.

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Seriously, where IS that heaven, exactly?

Different dimension perhaps?

(September 21, 2012 at 8:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Silliness. All of it.

If you are correct in your worldview, then yes. Christians are to be pitied for our foolishness.

If I am correct, it means I get to spend eternity in heaven with Jesus my Savior and Redeemer.

Wagering this short life seems like a pretty safe bet when the stakes are eternity.

The problem with combining infinite justice and infinite mercy: justice is when you get what you deserve, mercy is when you don't. To the degree they coexist, neither can be infinite, or perfect.

(September 21, 2012 at 3:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: The problem with combining infinite justice and infinite mercy: justice is when you get what you deserve, mercy is when you don't. To the degree they coexist, neither can be infinite, or perfect.

Unless you say everything deserves compassion/mercy.

(September 21, 2012 at 3:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 21, 2012 at 3:21 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: The problem with combining infinite justice and infinite mercy: justice is when you get what you deserve, mercy is when you don't. To the degree they coexist, neither can be infinite, or perfect.

Unless you say everything deserves compassion/mercy.

Which would negate all actions that would make then undeserving - ergo, injustice.

The only thing I can reply to at the moment [gotta run, but I'll reply in full a bit later], the one that nagged at me the most, was the surrender of his mortal life and not his divine one.

If Jesus had surrendered his divinity...I would find it far more relatable on both a scale of self-sacrifice [for what is a mortal life compared to divinity?] and of balance of payment [surrendering another 50 years of mortality in exchange for thousands of years both past and future of sins is like buying the Mona Lisa for $5]. The sacrifice is far from impressive to me, the other implications revolving around the guilt-trip and robbing of free-will notwithstanding, due to its utter lack of relatability. If Jesus had simply died and that was that, the nobility of his sacrifice would be far more worthy to me. But he died and then came back and ascended. Well, doesn't seem like he gave much up, did he? It's an attempt to guilt-trip me but it fails because it removes the reason to feel guilty in an attempt to make the story more awe-inspiring, see?

I'll answer the rest later when I get back, hopefully.

(September 21, 2012 at 9:04 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: The only thing I can reply to at the moment [gotta run, but I'll reply in full a bit later], the one that nagged at me the most, was the surrender of his mortal life and not his divine one.

If Jesus had surrendered his divinity...I would find it far more relatable on both a scale of self-sacrifice [for what is a mortal life compared to divinity?] and of balance of payment [surrendering another 50 years of mortality in exchange for thousands of years both past and future of sins is like buying the Mona Lisa for $5]. The sacrifice is far from impressive to me, the other implications revolving around the guilt-trip and robbing of free-will notwithstanding, due to its utter lack of relatability. If Jesus had simply died and that was that, the nobility of his sacrifice would be far more worthy to me. But he died and then came back and ascended. Well, doesn't seem like he gave much up, did he? It's an attempt to guilt-trip me but it fails because it removes the reason to feel guilty in an attempt to make the story more awe-inspiring, see?

I'll answer the rest later when I get back, hopefully.

I'll be honest, I've never thought of it this way, but you make a valid point. What is one mortal (though not really mortal) life compared to the infinite, omnipresent life of God. Though to be honest, it would be physically impossible for a God to "sacrifice" anything anyway, as sacrifice is literally an offering to God. How can one offer something to oneself? Even stranger still, how can God offer himself to himself in order to create a loophole in the stringent "entry requirements" of heaven that he, himself, created the first place. The whole situation is rather peculiar.

Your only crime Dumac is that you are not insane = "True Christian" TM

(September 21, 2012 at 3:07 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: If you are correct in your worldview, then yes. Christians are to be pitied for our foolishness.

If I am correct, it means I get to spend eternity in heaven with Jesus my Savior and Redeemer.

Wagering this short life seems like a pretty safe bet when the stakes are eternity.

You left out the part that if your baseless assumption is false, and there is nothing to indicate it is not, then you will waste the only life you have and miss opportunities all under the illusion that you have some special access to a trans-dimensional plane where you live for ever and have your every need catered for. Have you ever actually said that aloud? Because it sounds like the very definition of wishful thinking.
Its also a form of wishful thinking religion is all too happy to move the goal posts to humour. First the soul is an actual organ in the body, then after the first autopsy its suddenly "metaphysical". We're centre of the universe... oh fuck, nevermind. The Bible is literal, oh wait... no turns out thats impossible... ok its metaphorical. Can someone listen to this shameless bartering without realizing they are listening to tricksters redefining the parameters of their illusion to better fool their audience?
Regardless of how short it is, your life will be wasted under the guise of a fantasy.

(September 14, 2012 at 3:26 am)Polaris Wrote: So you only thought you could speak in tongues (?) because otherwise it would just be some nut speaking in gibberish to himself.

How do you tell the difference between someone speaking in tongues and someone speaking gibberish? Has there ever been a scientific test of two people communicating real information while speaking in tongues with one another?