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October 20, 2012 at 4:02 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2012 at 4:02 pm by kılıç_mehmet.)
(October 20, 2012 at 3:49 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(October 20, 2012 at 3:43 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Like if you ask a question "what if God existed", the only answers that you get will be a projection of what you would want God to be.
In other words, you yourself envision yourself as a "creator of the creator". Quite a paradox, if you ask me.
In what way would those answers differ from the believers answers?
Show of hands, to any believers interested in responding...is god not what you wish for him to be? Do you wish that god was something else? Anyone?
For believers of world religions...Well, they do not envision their God. Their vision of God has been pre-molded for them. They just need to pour the material they have been given into it. To each accordingly, the material could be as frail as glass, or as hard as steel.
Those who only believe in the concept of God, they too, cannot manufacture them according to their own will. For you cannot manufacture a sword without knowing what a sword looks like.
Neither can you manufacture a goblet, without knowing what a goblet is or what it's made of.
(October 20, 2012 at 3:49 pm)Rhythm Wrote: In what way would those answers differ from the believers answers?
Show of hands, to any believers interested in responding...is god not what you wish for him to be? Do you wish that god was something else? Anyone?
For believers of world religions...Well, they do not envision their God. Their vision of God has been pre-molded for them. They just need to pour the material they have been given into it. To each accordingly, the material could be as frail as glass, or as hard as steel.
Those who only believe in the concept of God, they too, cannot manufacture them according to their own will. For you cannot manufacture a sword without knowing what a sword looks like.
Neither can you manufacture a goblet, without knowing what a goblet is or what it's made of.
The concept of God is quite similar to this.
Unless you arbitrarily define a sword or goblet as whatever you want to define them as. Most people (well, all sane people, anyway), for instance, do not agree that it is okay to kill someone for working on a Sunday. They knowingly ignore the passage that says it must be done, and perhaps even decide that that passage is incorrect. People have defined god as omni-benevolent even though he clearly is not. Under the assumption that god exists, these definitions would be meaningless, but when one considers god as one of humanity's creations, then these redefinitions make perfect sense.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
October 20, 2012 at 4:16 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2012 at 4:17 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Oh I don't know Mehm, put two believers in the same room and they're likely to agree only on the broadest of strokes. Everyone has their own personal Jesus, so the saying goes.
I have to bring this up...if you can't manufacture a sword without first knowing what one looks like..how did the very first sword miracle itself into existence? Don't start in on platitudes man.....because if you want to peddle that bullshit and then say that the concept of god is similar....I'm going to have to agree, the concept of god is very similar to a platitude. In fact, it is so similar that one might just be justified in calling the two things one in the same.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
October 20, 2012 at 4:32 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2012 at 4:33 pm by kılıç_mehmet.)
Quote:Everyone has their own personal Jesus, so the saying goes.
Well, I don't know about that. But I could tell that there are different schools of thought within christianity who have attributed different personalities to Jesus, as Son of God, as God, as Divine or as human. And these too, came from various interpretations of the scripture, again, not from thin air.
Religion is a collective form of thought that must base itself on some form of hard base. It's not something you make up out of nothing.
Quote:Put two believers in the same room and they're likely to agree only on the broadest of strokes.
Really?
I think that every religion, creed, ideology has some set of fundamentals that all of it's adherents believe in.
Anything else is just very trivial and personal, and do not carry themselves into the future of that ideology, unless they further explain and maintain the said fundamentals. I can prove this by giving examples of my own ideology.
Quote:I have to bring this up...if you can't manufacture a sword without first knowing what one looks like..how did the very first sword miracle itself into existence?
Providing that the sword is some sort of a being with comparable power to a God, well, the general idea would be to assume that it has always been there with the shape that we know of it was always like the shape we know. Just like we cannot actually comprehend what was there before the big bang, and where it came from.
Likewise, in science, you sometimes have to assume things to actually get somewhere.
October 20, 2012 at 4:45 pm (This post was last modified: October 20, 2012 at 4:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 20, 2012 at 4:32 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Well, I don't know about that. But I could tell that there are different schools of thought within christianity who have attributed different personalities to Jesus, as Son of God, as God, as Divine or as human. And these too, came from various interpretations of the scripture, again, not from thin air.
Religion is a collective form of thought that must base itself on some form of hard base. It's not something you make up out of nothing.
Oh must it? Because that hard base has shown itself to be pretty malleable over the years don't you think? Where did all of these various scriptures (from which we have a descending line of interpretations) come from? We do, btw see, points at which little details to this or that myth wee added "out of thin air". I don't know what led you to believe that these myths were somehow fucking eternal....
Quote:I think that every religion, creed, ideology has some set of fundamentals that all of it's adherents believe in.
Sure, the broad strokes.
Quote:Anything else is just very trivial and personal, and do not carry themselves into the future of that ideology, unless they further explain and maintain the said fundamentals. I can prove this by giving examples of my own ideology.
Examples which I will then call trivial and personal.......
Quote:Providing that the sword is some sort of a being with comparable power to a God, well, the general idea would be to assume that it has always been there with the shape that we know of it was always like the shape we know. Just like we cannot actually comprehend what was there before the big bang, and where it came from.
Likewise, in science, you sometimes have to assume things to actually get somewhere.
Oh for fucks sake...so you were peddling a platitude. Now we're on to another. It isn't the assuming that gets one somewhere in science, it's the demonstrating, not that appealing to the assumptions of others would provide any justification for an assumption such as the one you just tried to sell in any case.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Quote:Put two believers in the same room and they're likely to agree only on the broadest of strokes.
Really?
I think that every religion, creed, ideology has some set of fundamentals that all of it's adherents believe in.
Anything else is just very trivial and personal, and do not carry themselves into the future of that ideology, unless they further explain and maintain the said fundamentals. I can prove this by giving examples of my own ideology.
So they'll ignore the differences in their religions and just get along? Or...
Deuteronomy 13:6-12 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.
...will they kill each other? But I'm sure that's an isolated incident. It isn't like there are other passages telling you to kill people for belonging to another...
Deuteronomy 17:2-6 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.
...oh. And you only need the unsupported testiminy of two people who don't like you...
Well, at least this is on an individual basis. It could be worse; they could be required to kill entire...
Deuteronomy 13:12-16 12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt,
... Just forget it.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
(October 21, 2012 at 3:40 pm)IATIA Wrote: Why? To what end?
Because He wanted to, and we have not reached the end so we do not know.
Which returns to the question: If we did not exist (i.e. god could not create us) would god have any purpose? What if god couldn't create but was still very powerful otherwise and was thrown into an existing universe? Who wants to bet he would take credit for it and enslave the populace anyway?
![[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i128.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp161%2Fazmhyr%2Ftrkdevletbayraklar.jpg)
Just forget it.
