(November 12, 2012 at 5:20 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So if they see Allah in a dream, you will [rightly] assume that it is not genuine? Then why do you not apply this same view to dreams about your own religion? /rhetorical

Again Read the Link YOU Provided! Even in their Dreams they can not see their god. He would consume them if he appeared before them. he manifest himself as some sort of light. How can one have a relationship with a being by his very nature would consume or destroy the very fiber of your being?

Quote:Really, the main thing to influence dreams would probably be your own ideas and life.

I do not disagree. Which further points to the uniqueness of what I experienced. My understanding of God was brought to a level that had not imagined.

Quote: God as a concept can influence dreams in that you might dream about god, but a dream is not evidence that the thing being dreamed about is actually real; which is, I think, the main argument being made against the OP.

The dream itself I would say not, for a dream is just a vessal. It is the content of said dream that makes all the difference.

Quote:Either:
1. Hitler killed the Jews for a number of reasons; the main reason was religion, and he actively displayed this
2. Hitler killed the Jews for a number of reasons; the main reason was not religion, but he knew people would be more accepting if they thought it was, so he used [not exclusively] religious propoganda to win support.

No. The Jews were used as a rally cry, a catch all to everything that was wrong with germany. From social problems, health problems, ecconomic problems, to even thier loss of WWI. (Even though many Jewish Germans served their Father Land and died in that war.) They were considered to be Germany's "Native Americans" By Hitler and was inspired by our camps and death marches to solve their 'problem' the same way we did. The only problem was he was about 50 years too late for that mentality to be accepted anymore. That generation died and a more compassionate generation looked harshly at what he did.

Quote:I'll clarify this. I do not mean to say that you think we are politically nazis, but are comparing us to them as an insult.

no.

I have outlined my thoughts on this 4 times now. It is not fair to ask me to do this again. Go back and read some of the first post i had with Alpo, or The Germans are comming.[/quote]

(November 12, 2012 at 5:59 pm)Drich Wrote:

(November 12, 2012 at 5:20 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So if they see Allah in a dream, you will [rightly] assume that it is not genuine? Then why do you not apply this same view to dreams about your own religion? /rhetorical

Again Read the Link YOU Provided! Even in their Dreams they can not see their god. He would consume them if he appeared before them. he manifest himself as some sort of light. How can one have a relationship with a being by his very nature would consume or destroy the very fiber of your being?

Missprint. I meant 'experience'. You can't see Yahweh either, or else you will die, according to the bible.

---

Exodus 33:20

"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

---

Drich Wrote:

Darkstar Wrote:Really, the main thing to influence dreams would probably be your own ideas and life.

I do not disagree. Which further points to the uniqueness of what I experienced. My understanding of God was brought to a level that had not imagined.

...? Did you mean "that I had not imagined"? This doesn't really mean anything. If it was a dream, then you imagined it.

Drich Wrote:

Darkstar Wrote:God as a concept can influence dreams in that you might dream about god, but a dream is not evidence that the thing being dreamed about is actually real; which is, I think, the main argument being made against the OP.

The dream itself I would say not, for a dream is just a vessal. It is the content of said dream that makes all the difference.

Actually not really...
On what grounds can you claim that a dream was actually a telepathic vision from an otherwise undetectable omnipotent being? You might as well say a space themed dream was sent by aliens. You would have no less evidence for that than you would for your dream.

Drich Wrote:

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Darkstar Wrote:Either:
1. Hitler killed the Jews for a number of reasons; the main reason was religion, and he actively displayed this
2. Hitler killed the Jews for a number of reasons; the main reason was not religion, but he knew people would be more accepting if they thought it was, so he used [not exclusively] religious propoganda to win support.

No. The Jews were used as a rally cry, a catch all to everything that was wrong with germany. From social problems, health problems, ecconomic problems, to even thier loss of WWI. (Even though many Jewish Germans served their Father Land and died in that war.) They were considered to be Germany's "Native Americans" By Hitler and was inspired by our camps and death marches to solve their 'problem' the same way we did. The only problem was he was about 50 years too late for that mentality to be accepted anymore. That generation died and a more compassionate generation looked harshly at what he did.

---

I'm not disageeing. I'm only saying that religious propoganda was used by the nazis to smear the Jews. I said there were other kinds of propoganda, and that religion was not necessarily the driving force, either.

Darkstar Wrote:I just...can't often bring myself to give up at something unless continuing is futile and detrimental to my health.

It is. You just haven't realized it yet.

(November 12, 2012 at 6:10 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Missprint. I meant 'experience'. You can't see Yahweh either, or else you will die, according to the bible.

---

Exodus 33:20

You are thinking Jew God. Christian God lived as one of us. What's More Christ God lives along side and guides you in the way of the Holy Spirit. That is what you are A/S/K for according to Christ.

Quote:"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

---

Read your muslim artical, not the bible if you wish to repersent what they believe. their god can only be seen as a source of light. that's it.

Quote:...? Did you mean "that I had not imagined"? This doesn't really mean anything. If it was a dream, then you imagined it.

Again I had a very tradition understanding of Hell. I knew nothing nothing else of hell than what I had always been taught. My dream/vision gave me understanding of God and of Hell I never knew before.

Quote:Actually not really...
On what grounds can you claim that a dream was actually a telepathic vision from an otherwise undetectable omnipotent being? You might as well say a space themed dream was sent by aliens. You would have no less evidence for that than you would for your dream.

Again my dream/vision was not a source of proof for any of you. it was meant for me. The only reason I have shared is so you know God is willing to speak to you if you simply A/S/K as He has instructed. Then you can decide for yourself. Not on what happened to me but what God does for you.

Quote:I'm not disageeing. I'm only saying that religious propoganda was used by the nazis to smear the Jews. I said there were other kinds of propoganda, and that religion was not necessarily the driving force, either.

It's avaible. If this is your position then show me. Give me a reputiable source and not some photoshop crap.

(November 12, 2012 at 9:43 pm)Drich Wrote: You are thinking Jew God. Christian God lived as one of us. What's More Christ God lives along side and guides you in the way of the Holy Spirit. That is what you are A/S/K for according to Christ.

Having not been given details, I am now starting to appreciate why the leaders of your last church don't want you talking to members without supervision. Holy fuck!

Jew God vs. Christian God. Sounds like a god damned monster movie.

Coming soon to a theater near you...Biblical Jesus vs. Evangelical American Jesus (BJ vs. EAJ). BJ says sell your shit and give to the poor. EAJ says fuck my flock as long as you can fill my plate.

BJ says turn the other cheek, EAJ says bomb non-white people into submission.

BJ says a rich man can't fuck a camel to get into heaven (I know the original passage, I claim poetic license), EAJ says you can pay religious leaders for midfield seats in heaven.

BJ challenges others to throw the first stone, EAJ provides an infinite rock pile.

BJ says love thy neighbor, EAJ says love thy neighbor only if they are exactly like you, fuck the others. EAJ piles on here with the bullshit dictum..."I hate the sin, not the sinner".

Love,
cato

(November 12, 2012 at 9:43 pm)Drich Wrote:

(November 12, 2012 at 6:10 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Missprint. I meant 'experience'. You can't see Yahweh either, or else you will die, according to the bible.

---

Exodus 33:20

You are thinking Jew God. Christian God lived as one of us. What's More Christ God lives along side and guides you in the way of the Holy Spirit. That is what you are A/S/K for according to Christ.

So Yahweh isn't you god, and only Jesus, or do you mean both, as in the trinity?

Drich Wrote:

Darkstar Wrote:"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

---

Read your muslim artical, not the bible if you wish to repersent what they believe. their god can only be seen as a source of light. that's it.

So they see a beam of light and conclude god? That would be a pretty flimsy argument for god. Now, you mean you saw Jesus, which is where I was confused because 'god' usually refers to Yahweh.

Drich Wrote:

Darkstar Wrote:...? Did you mean "that I had not imagined"? This doesn't really mean anything. If it was a dream, then you imagined it.

Again I had a very tradition understanding of Hell. I knew nothing nothing else of hell than what I had always been taught. My dream/vision gave me understanding of God and of Hell I never knew before.

How do you know this 'knowledge' is anything more than a delusion? Do you have any outside sources to support the version of hell you experienced?

Drich Wrote:

Darkstar Wrote:Actually not really...
On what grounds can you claim that a dream was actually a telepathic vision from an otherwise undetectable omnipotent being? You might as well say a space themed dream was sent by aliens. You would have no less evidence for that than you would for your dream.

Again my dream/vision was not a source of proof for any of you. it was meant for me. The only reason I have shared is so you know God is willing to speak to you if you simply A/S/K as He has instructed. Then you can decide for yourself. Not on what happened to me but what God does for you.

You weren't really A/S/King, now were you? Why would you be bitter at something you didn't believe existed, and why would such a being [briefly] send you to hell when you were seeking him? Also, as has been noted, coming back alive from hell directly contradicts something god said at conclusion to the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Drich Wrote:

Darkstar Wrote:I'm not disageeing. I'm only saying that religious propoganda was used by the nazis to smear the Jews. I said there were other kinds of propoganda, and that religion was not necessarily the driving force, either.

It's avaible. If this is your position then show me. Give me a reputiable source and not some photoshop crap.

I was going to ask you what you meant by 'photoshopped', and then I realized you meant an actual nazi propoganda poster. I wasn't trying to potray that image as a bona fide propoganda poster, I was simply showing the quote. Now, real religious propoganda looks something like this:

Okay, so God spoke to me personally. Not through a dream, but right out in the open during daylight. I had pretty much the same story as Drich, with a few unimportant variations here and there. God told me that the bible was a frape of sorts, and that Satan perpetrated it. This made sense to me, as while God was telling me, I heard Satan lol and ask of God "U mad bro?" God then called Satan an oldfag and told him to lurk moar. Satan, not even perplexed by God's arrogance, responded with "Do you even lift?"

I know that all of this actually happened because when I woke up, Facebook existed and I was drawn to a page called Cheesus Christ. True story, Bro.

(November 12, 2012 at 10:24 pm)cato123 Wrote: Having not been given details, I am now starting to appreciate why the leaders of your last church don't want you talking to members without supervision. Holy fuck!

Jew God vs. Christian God. Sounds like a god damned monster movie.

(Respectfully) then maybe you should not jump into a conversation without being complete versed on what is being discussed. You are charging into battle half cocked, which makes you come off like a petty fool. Or maybe this is your intention eitherway their is little for me to say.

(November 13, 2012 at 11:56 am)Drich Wrote: You are charging into battle half cocked, which makes you come off like a petty fool.

Says the poster who had a bad dream and thinks that proves anything.

(November 12, 2012 at 10:33 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So Yahweh isn't you god, and only Jesus, or do you mean both, as in the trinity?

The Jewish understanding of God/Yahweh's physical being has one consumed by the glory of God for their unresolved/unattoned sin. Christians do not have that problem as our sins have been attoned for. So in a sence, no we do not have the same understanding of God.

Quote:So they see a beam of light and conclude god? That would be a pretty flimsy argument for god. Now, you mean you saw Jesus, which is where I was confused because 'god' usually refers to Yahweh.

In my Dream/Vision I looked Christ in the eyes (my oppertunity to spit in one of them) I did not see what you would see when you physically look into another persons eyes. I saw and felt the potiential love He offered, I saw my short commings and everything I did that prevented me for eternaly experiencing that Love. (in an instant)

The seperation from that Love is what made Hell unbearable. His eyes contained my final judgement, to which their was absolutly nothing for me to say. Let alone spit. This judgement lead me to understand the reason we have been given this life. So when we face that judgement we know where our hearts truly stand. Their isn't any doubt in your mind why or where you should spend eternity.

So no shapless pillar of light that i can not look directly at nor really have a sence of how or where it is comming.. God is not just a 'presents.' as the muslim god is. (which btw corresponds to some descriptions or incarnations of lucifer the son of light, or bright and morning star)

Quote:How do you know this 'knowledge' is anything more than a delusion?

10 years of off and on research.

Quote:Do you have any outside sources to support the version of hell you experienced?

The Bible supports my experience of Hell if you look into the orginal Greek and Hebrew texts. Before this dream I had no idea that the Jews were given to one understanding of Hell, and Christ expanded on that view for the whole of Christianity. I only ever understood Hell to be a literal lake of fire or a series of caves where a red horned devil ruled the underworld. I know alot of people understand this to be hell because of all of the various books and art work commissioned by the middle ages church, but the bible has little to no support of this understanding of hell.

This understanding is a mixture of Greek mythos and passages from the NT. It takes alot of study and a commitment to what the bible actually says to get past this idea. I was given this understanding long before I could contextually back up this revelation with the bible.
Because i know this to be true, i know my experience to be genuine.

Quote:You weren't really A/S/King, now were you?

why because i was mad at God? Don't you think God knows when you are mad or when you are pretending to approach Him with some false idea of holiness?? Bottom line I was sincere in my anger, while many who approach him in respect are not. I may not have been as respectful as I should have been, but looking back I can honestly say I was not the first to 'approach' God this way. Many 'wrestle' with God before yeilding.

Quote:Why would you be bitter at something you didn't believe existed, and why would such a being [briefly] send you to hell when you were seeking him?

I was mad or bitter at the whole christian process. I wanted to know if their was indeed a God. By then My mother found him and I was hearing stories about how he had touched other lives. I went through the motions and found nothing, so that made me mad. Mad at everyone for BSing me because at that point. I knew their could Not be a real God because i had done everything they had done and I got nothing out of it.

What made it worse is the girl i went to church for left me for some guy (who looked like me but had a new [at the time new] Corvette) I had made a "deal" with her and her 'God', that If I could live happily ever after, i would do all the church stuff get baptized the confess the whole nine yards.. Even though I did not believe God was a real thing (simply nothing to say to me He was) I knew she was and she believed so at the time it was enough for me.

It took the break up of the girl for me to truly seek out God. I sought God for a selfish reason, but an honest one. In doing so I did activly follow the promise Christ out lines in Luke 11. I earnestly Ask, Sought, and knocked or rather kicked at the 'door,' and DEMANDED to be let in. So I was. Just like the persistent neighbor was given what I wanted. I was given EXACTLY what I wanted. (an oppertunity to spit in the eye of God.) I also got to experience what my efforts merrited.

Their is a much easier way. One that is not as wet the bed tramatic.. But I guess that depends on you and how hard your heart is.

Quote: Also, as has been noted, coming back alive from hell directly contradicts something god said at conclusion to the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

as I have been reminded by the good people at my old church... May I also remind you I didn't actually goto Hell it was just a dream/vision of the Gates of Hell. As bad as that was, I did not actually get into the hell Part of Hell.

Quote:I was going to ask you what you meant by 'photoshopped', and then I realized you meant an actual nazi propoganda poster. I wasn't trying to potray that image as a bona fide propoganda poster, I was simply showing the quote. Now, real religious propoganda looks something like this:

---

Let's see, he looks kind of saint-like, has the impression of a halo, and a cross on his chest. His left arm is on the shoulder of a nazi with a swastica flag, and with his right he is smiting a three headed snake with a sword. Said snake happens to have the star of David on it twice.

---

[/quote]

Again up until July 1 1941 the nazi's embraced Christianity. It wasn't till the eve of "Phase 3 of the Final Soultion" that Hitler became a god unto himself, thereby requiring all of the Nazi leadership to cast off their old religious affilations and swear aliegance to him. So the question becomes when was your poster printed.

Why? Because it is not unreasonable to say that Nazis loved christianity and used it in the beginning of their campain, (1933 to 1938, in '38 the started the seperation from the church) but as time progressed, and Hitler's plan for germany unfolded. God was no where to be found.

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(November 12, 2012 at 11:16 pm)Gambit Wrote: Okay, so God spoke to me personally. Not through a dream, but right out in the open during daylight. I had pretty much the same story as Drich, with a few unimportant variations here and there. God told me that the bible was a frape of sorts, and that Satan perpetrated it. This made sense to me, as while God was telling me, I heard Satan lol and ask of God "U mad bro?" God then called Satan an oldfag and told him to lurk moar. Satan, not even perplexed by God's arrogance, responded with "Do you even lift?"

I know that all of this actually happened because when I woke up, Facebook existed and I was drawn to a page called Cheesus Christ. True story, Bro.

Mr. Smith or can I call you Joseph? I thought after the whole mormon thing, and being sent to hell for it, someone would have told you by now, that the way one knows the difference between Speaking to Christ and receiving a revelation from a 'familiar spirit' claiming to be of God or "Not Christ"/Anti-Christ is the fact that God will never contradict what has been written in scripture...