(December 3, 2012 at 10:13 am)A Theist Wrote: ...how far should our government go with cultural distortions to redefine marriage in this country...since homosexual marriage between consenting adults is recognized in some states, why not take it farther to also include polygamous marriages between consenting adults where a man or a woman can legally marry multiple spouses?

Why not, indeed?

(December 3, 2012 at 10:40 am)A Theist Wrote: why stop there....would you also agree to redefining marriage to include legally recognizing incestual marriages between consenting adults, brother / sister, uncle / niece, aunt / nephew, parent / child.....

Again, why would I not? Who are YOU to say what someone can or cannot do if it does not harm another, if all parties are willing and consenting?

(December 3, 2012 at 11:23 am)A Theist Wrote: I also believe our government has the responsibility to preserve the stability of our culture...which includes defending traditional marriage between a man and a woman.

W...what?? WHAT?? WHAT?! WHAT?!!

Stability of our cultu-

WHICH ONE?! The Chinese one? The Irish one? The Scottish one? British, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, Indigenous [all hundred or so of them], French, African, Japanese, Mongolian- WHICH ONE of the EVERY SINGLE CULTURE IN EXISTENCE we are comprised of are you referring to, dude?

America's supposed to be about freedom. That's the ONLY culture that means a damn thing. Unless of course you're talking about the culture of the puritans and if so, well, why don't we just also preserve the stability of witch-trials, huh? How about some good ol'-fashioned cultural raping of local, native peoples...in every sense of the word? How about we preserve the cultural stability of White Man > Everyone Not A White Man?? In other words, why don't we just go ahead and preserve ass-backwardsness? Why don't we go ahead and preserve regression and stagnation? In trade for the liberty and freedom the Founding Fathers fought for, died for, and suffered for? Whatever the hell we were BEFORE the Constitution was implemented, it was supposed to die at that moment, but because change is slow it took us around 200 years to start actually getting to the point where "all men are created equal" started being something we stopped preaching about and started genuinely practicing.

There is no justification for wanting to live in the past other than insecurity. You can't say it's what the founding fathers would have wanted because the Constitution clearly paved the way for what we have today; a society that is slowly but surely becoming all-accepting of those who wish to live their lives so long as they harm nobody else or force anybody else into anything and that is slowly but surely beginning to get sick of being told how they should live their lives for the "good of tradition."

This country is advancing. It was doing it faster before because shit changed; society changed, we changed. And it only took eight years of republicans pumping the brakes full-stop to completely derail the train of economic progress, but they couldn't stop the train of social progress, and that scares them, and that's why despite losing 2012 HORRIBLY they're gonna keep doing what they've been doing because, as the Paladin said, they've shackled their wagon to a dying star. Being old and crotchety and bitching about all the newfangled stuff is getting old...and it's dying. A new breed of Americans, who are far more accepting and flexible than their elders were, are taking over. And if the republicans don't clusterfuck it before they can get their hands on the reins, this country will be BEAUTIFUL. It will be GLORIOUS. It will be what America was MEANT to be; the land of the TRULY free and home of the bravely open-minded.

U-S-A!! U-S-A!! U-S-A!! [just imagine those last letters were white or somethin']

I can't believe A Theist here.

We, the People of the United States, tolerated, nay, followed George W. Bush for eight fucking years.

A Theist and others told those who objected to leave.

We, the People of the United States, vote in Obama for eight years.

Now A Theist is the one lobbying for impeachment and/or disunion.

How you like them apples, motherfucker?

(December 3, 2012 at 1:46 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: I can't believe A Theist here.

We, the People of the United States, tolerated, nay, followed George W. Bush for eight fucking years.

A Theist and others told those who objected to leave.

We, the People of the United States, vote in Obama for eight years.

Now A Theist is the one lobbying for impeachment and/or disunion.

How you like them apples, motherfucker?

You know what? It's EXTRA stupid because rather than put in the effort to move, they would rather not have to move at all; they would rather the borders of the US themselves shift to accommodate them rather than move, which is what they told us to do, as if they're more entitled to the country than the rest of us. So it's even worse.

(December 3, 2012 at 1:46 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: I can't believe A Theist here.

We, the People of the United States, tolerated, nay, followed George W. Bush for eight fucking years.

A Theist and others told those who objected to leave.

We, the People of the United States, vote in Obama for eight years.

Now A Theist is the one lobbying for impeachment and/or disunion.

How you like them apples, motherfucker?

Awww .. don't be so hard on him Moros, he's just trying to be a good american patriot ..

@Moros, nothing new here. The GOP has shamelessly advocated double standards based on which party is in power.

GOP wins an election: "It's a mandate. We get what we want and you get to shut up!"

Dems win an election: "It's a call for bipartisanship. You need to still include us in decisions or you're a bunch of mean dictators."

GOP is in power: "Shut up, salute and support the president or you're a traitor. My god man, we're at war. Don't you dare even criticize our government."

Dems are in power: "Impeach him! Fraud! Conspiracies! Acorn stole the election! and he wasn't born here! Second amendment remedies! We came unarmed this time!"

GOP in power: "Deficits don't matter (so we get to do all the things we want)."

Dems in power: "We have to get spending under control! (so they can't do all the things they want)."

Now, I'll grant some of this is human nature. It's always the loser who wants a recount, etc. But Republicans take it to such an extreme as to be Orwellian. It's just amazing how they can without any sense of irony take the opposite positions as soon as power changes hand. One standard for Democrats, another for Republicans.

(December 3, 2012 at 12:48 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(December 3, 2012 at 12:39 pm)A Theist Wrote: Couldn't agree with you more DP.....Iran should never be allowed to obtain a nuclear weapon.

Out of curiosity, do you also agree that the American Revolution is an ongoing struggle? The abolition of slavery, women's suffrage and ongoing civil rights issues are all milestones or battles fought along the way. Our founders could only point the way. It's up to us to complete the journey, if we can manage it in our lifetimes.

So no, I'm not leaving if my country is not all it could be.

Maybe you see it that way, but I see it being a battle for the culture...a struggle between two philosophies....traditionalists who are struggling to preserve the culture and the neo-leftists who are attempting to overthrow the culture and replace it entirely with a distortion of our culture...

Quote:Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns.... All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new."
.... A successful change includes therefore three aspects:....
"An organizer must stir up dissatisfaction and discontent...
"The job then is getting the people to move, to act, to participate; in short, to develop and harness the necessary power to effectively conflict with the prevailing patterns and change them. When those prominent in the status quo turn and label you an 'agitator' they are completely correct, for that is, in one word, your function—to agitate to the point of conflict." - 'Rules For Radicals'

....

The abolition of slavery, women's suffrage and civil rights issues were corrections to the culture...to be a part of it...unlike the neo-leftists today who are trying to overthrow our culture and replace it entirely.

(December 4, 2012 at 11:21 am)A Theist Wrote: Maybe you see it that way, but I see it being a battle for the culture...a struggle between two philosophies....traditionalists who are struggling to preserve the culture and the neo-leftists who are attempting to overthrow the culture and replace it entirely with a distortion of our culture...

That or we have a different idea on what values we prioritize in our culture.

Quote:The abolition of slavery, women's suffrage and civil rights issues were corrections to the culture...to be a part of it...unlike the neo-leftists today who are trying to overthrow our culture and replace it entirely.

Dude. Have you heard some of the speaches that were made in opposition of interracial marriage or slavery? Other than replacing the words 'same sex marriage' with 'interacial marriage,' they sound almost identical!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAOGzFWhTuU

Even the groups that are opposed to interacial marriage and same sex marriage are pretty much the same: fundamentalist Christians opposed both, especially in the south where they have a pretty strict control over the state governments, and especially the Mormons who donated an incredibly amount of money into Prop 8 in California and who didn't allow black men into the priesthood until the 1970's. The parallels between racism and homophobia are kinda obvious.

Quote: Have you heard some of the speaches that were made in opposition of interracial marriage or slavery? Other than replacing the words 'same sex marriage' with 'interacial marriage,' they sound almost identical!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgfjJ0yOcZQ

On that note this epic video from few months back seems very relevant (your video isnt working and appears to be almost 6 mins long, so it cant be this one unless your video is made up of two clips, this one after the first)

(December 4, 2012 at 11:21 am)A Theist Wrote: Maybe you see it that way, but I see it being a battle for the culture...a struggle between two philosophies....traditionalists who are struggling to preserve the culture and the neo-leftists who are attempting to overthrow the culture and replace it entirely with a distortion of our culture...

So...BEFORE, it was a struggle between two philosophies, but now it's either "stay exactly as we are" or "CHANGE FUCKING EVERYTHING" complete with a tableflip of rage and frustration?

Strawman, anyone? "We want to legalize gay marriage!" "YOU'RE TRYING TO USURP THE ENTIRE CULTURE!!" Strawman, yup.

Quote:The abolition of slavery, women's suffrage and civil rights issues were corrections to the culture...to be a part of it...unlike the neo-leftists today who are trying to overthrow our culture and replace it entirely.

So the slaveholder part of American history is the exact same as the non-slaveholder part of American history, eh? We are culturally EXACTLY the same?

No, you're right, A_T, we are the exact same culture. The EXACT same culture, except now we don't allow slavery of people with darker skin than we whites have, the entire female gender portion of our population is now treated as equal citizens who are not inferior or subservient to men and are actually allowed to have a voice in the political landscape of the nation, and people of differing "races" can now get married, among many more examples of how this culture is fucking nothing like it used to be. Slavery was such a HUGE cultural deal that it damn near split this country in half! This little incident we call the American Civil War? Yeah...slavery wasn't the ONLY reason, but it was the BIGGEST reason for it. Federal law started saying "you can't own slaves," the southern states who were reliant on slave-labor said "WELL FUCK YOU WE'RE LEAVING." And the North was like "Oh no you don't." A few million deaths later, and the social liberals beat the social conservatives, though they all went by different names and parties in those times than what they are now today.

Oh yeah, that's right, I went there! For all the conservative talk of how social liberals hate America and how we're a bunch of pussies, we sure did one hell of a job keeping it from splitting down the Mason-Dixon line via warfare while the idiots you share a like-mind with back then were eager as fuck to practically destroy it and who got their asses kicked.

This is seriously the stupidest argument you've put forth, A_T. "Defending the culture..." Seriously. Slavery, as I stated before, was a huge god-damn deal. Our country, and ergo, our culture was built on it, and solving the inhumane issue of it literally required war. This wasn't some peaceable amendment to the constitution, some passive altering of the cultural identity, it was something that millions spilled blood over, it was THAT damn ingrained. Don't tell me "neo liberals" are trying to upend our culture as if it's a bad thing because lemme tell ya, it ain't.

This culture is considered to be the most ass-backwards one in the developed world by the rest of the developed world. It has become a foster home for ignorance and intolerance in comparison to the rest of, say, Europe. Our culture is becoming one of "me me me it's all about me" and in some strange correlation to that, our ranking in education, economic advancement, technological innovation, healthcare quality and cost-efficiency, infrastructure, and wealth disparity are dropping like fucking lead weights into the ocean while all the European nations that you neo-cons keep scorning for whatever fucking reason are taking the top spots because they're culturally adapting far faster to the modern world than we are. Oh yes, I'm sure it's great fun to sit there and go "ALL DEM EURO-TRASHES BE A BUNCH'A COMMIES, AIN'T NO FUCKIN' WAY AH'M GONNA BE ONNA DEM HIPPIES!" while your country falls to shit around you because half of it shares the same stupid fucking opinion. Our country isn't falling apart because of the federal deficit. It's falling apart because at a cultural level, the people trying to bring us into the 21st century are having to drag you dead-weights kicking and screaming.

Lemme guess. You think it's "good wholesome American values" that brought us to where we are, right? FAITH AND PATRIOTISM, THEY MAKE EHMURRIKA GREAT, right? No. They didn't. The fact we had an innovative infrastructure [our roads were better than any other nation despite our vast distances...because we taxed the fuck out of the rich to pave these roads, by the way], the fact that we applied the latest technological and social advances towards mass-production, and the fact that we grew more and more accepting of people regardless who they were, the fact that we were the first to offer new opportunities, the fact that we attracted the greatest scientific minds in the world, the fact that we threw so much money into our education system...THAT is what made America great, not these stupid ideas of "marriage sanctity" and the other crap you're trying to defend. The sanctity of marriage means fuck all.

But see, neocons don't think in realms of rationality and logic, they think with their guts, rather than their brains. Big fucking shock that virtually none of the never-gonna-shift Red States have fuck all to offer the country at large. Kentucky, Mississippi, Iowa, Idaho, the Dakotas, Alabama, Arizona, do fucking tell me what these fiscal lepers have to offer the rest of the country other than incurring more fucking debt with their stupid state tax policies that end up making other states dip into their own budgets to cover for them under the federal umbrella? What DO they provide? Some fucking farmland?? Whoop dee fucking doo.

Now I'm sorry if this message comes across as a little angry but I'm getting tired of hearing these dumb-as-shit arguments that make no fucking sense being put forth by the ultraconservatives as if they are reasonable and tangible when they're anything but and if this skewering doesn't give you an idea why they make no sense then feel free to actually try seeing it from the perspective I am arguing from, because I have done it already. I USED to be a republican until I realized the republican social agenda doesn't stack up with anything involving reason.

Quote:Maybe you see it that way, but I see it being a battle for the culture...a struggle between two philosophies....traditionalists who are struggling to preserve the culture and the neo-leftists who are attempting to overthrow the culture and replace it entirely with a distortion of our culture...

Yep, you are just a Rush-Limbaugh class, angry old white guy who can't stand the thought that your hold on power is coming to an end.

Fuck off. You guys made a mess of this country. Take your fucking god and ride off into the sunset so the rest of us can get on with cleaning up all the shit you left behind.