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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 9:12 am
(December 11, 2012 at 9:02 am)CliveStaples Wrote: (December 11, 2012 at 9:00 am)Gooders1002 Wrote: Firstly this stuff cannot be explained by science yet, we're working on it.
This all boils down to the golden rule, do on to others which you would do to yourself. Unless your psychotic, would you want some to steal your stuff or hurt you? I know Good and Evil are subjective (and requires a whole other debate) but for the sack of argument.
Good is defined: Aiding somebody's freedom and well-being.
Evil is Defined: Hindering somebody's freedom and well-being.
How do you know that you should do Good, rather than Evil? How do you know that "You should do Evil" is false? Seriously?
Well if everybody acted 'Evil' to each other, our race would die out in days, months max. Nature prefers cooperation and being helpful because if not are race would be extinct a long time ago. Being 'good' allows the group to benefit and survive and thrive, and allow advancement. So by working together and helping each other we have a advantage were if everybody murdered and stole we would die out quickly.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Edward Gibbon (Offen misattributed to Lucius Annaeus Seneca or Seneca the Younger) (Thanks to apophenia for the correction)
'I am driven by two main philosophies:
Know more about the world than I knew yesterday and lessen the suffering of others. You'd be surprised how far that gets you' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 10:36 am
(December 11, 2012 at 7:55 am)CliveStaples Wrote: How do you know that being kind and helpful is "good"?
. . . . but it takes religion to make a good person do bad things.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2012 at 11:12 am by Napoléon.)
(December 11, 2012 at 8:34 am)CliveStaples Wrote: Right, but how do you know that you should do "Good" things and refrain from doing "bad" things? How do you know that you're not supposed to steal or hurt others?
Remember, atheists rely only on evidence. What scientific proof do you have that you shouldn't hurt others?
Probably not, but I might also want to steal my neighbor's car. I might want not to get caught by the police; I might want to kill or intimidate any witnesses into remaining silent.
And what does it matter what I would like to happen to myself?
Loving the amount of JAQing off that's going on here. Is it possible for you to write a sentence without asking a question?
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 11:22 am
It's not a question of what we're supposed to do or not supposed to do. "Supposed" suggests some kind of subservience to a higher authority, which is the very thing under contention. Think more along the lines of obligation to the society in which we live, and what we tend to do with people who don't play ball for whatever reason.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 11:32 am
(December 11, 2012 at 7:37 am)Gooders1002 Wrote: This Is as a more realistic version of Blaise Pascal’s Wager.
Atheists Wager
What are your thoughts?
It is a win/win for everybody I think the atheists wager is an overcomplication. There doesn't need to be an analogous version of a fallacious argument. Just point out that Pascal's Wager conflicts directly with any claims to God wanting sincerity from his believers. Job done.
Sum ergo sum
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 11:36 am
I think that's the point, really, to point out that Pascal's Wager is hardly the slam-dunk that it's frequently sold to be, that it's not the only game in town. It's not something that's set in stone nor embraced as atheist dogma; but then again it doesn't really need to be. I mean, live your life as though there are no gods? Who doesn't do that anyway?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 1:53 pm
From the link:
Quote: If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.
This is a common misconception. As James said, the demons believe in God - and shudder. Biblically, you are judged on your merits. God just doesn't find us very meritorious.
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 2:19 pm
(December 11, 2012 at 9:02 am)CliveStaples Wrote: How do you know that you should do Good, rather than Evil? How do you know that "You should do Evil" is false?
I don't like doing evil because I am nice.
Clive, what if someone convinced your that god actually wanted you to do evil?
Would you suddenly start raping and killing? or would you use your own judgement like a normal person?
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 2:57 pm
(This post was last modified: December 11, 2012 at 3:07 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(December 11, 2012 at 7:39 am)CliveStaples Wrote: What is a "good" life? What does it mean to make a place "better"?
Why is it usually Christians who think those questions are stumpers?
(December 11, 2012 at 9:02 am)CliveStaples Wrote: How do you know that you should do Good, rather than Evil? How do you know that "You should do Evil" is false?
You can't escape the burden of deciding for yourself what is right and wrong. Even choosing to do whatever you think God wants you to, requires YOU to judge that obeying God is good.
(December 11, 2012 at 1:53 pm)John V Wrote: This is a common misconception. As James said, the demons believe in God - and shudder. Biblically, you are judged on your merits. God just doesn't find us very meritorious.
A good potter doesn't blame the clay.
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RE: Atheists Wager
December 11, 2012 at 3:14 pm
(December 11, 2012 at 2:57 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: (December 11, 2012 at 1:53 pm)John V Wrote: This is a common misconception. As James said, the demons believe in God - and shudder. Biblically, you are judged on your merits. God just doesn't find us very meritorious.
A good potter doesn't blame the clay.
A bad football player blames the pitch... or the ball.
A bad dancer blames the floor.
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