A dispassionate way of explaining what Germans is saying is that gun ownership and gun regulations (against all intuition- I'll grant you that) do not seem to have any effect on the rate of violent crime (particularly homicide) in any given country. That a much stronger relationship can be found in social, economic, and political situations.

The reason that this is important, is that if the idea is -to lower the homicide rate, or the rate of violent crime- we have no data that suggest that this will be accomplished by stricter gun laws, or restrictive ownership policies (up to and including prohibition)...what we do have, is data that suggests something a bit less flattering. That the thing that seems simplest to grasp intuitively is not actually a determining factor. That the underlying causes for this problem you wish to address are a great deal deeper and more difficult to resolve. In essence, that guns have become a scapegoat for something altogether uglier.

A cynical way of explaining what Germans is saying is that 14 thousand homicides should be regarded as acceptable and we should not take obvious steps which would reduce that number, as homicide rates in countries with very strict gun control (and the means to enforce it) tend to be vastly lower than in the United States (four times higher than the UK and Australia, five times higher than Germany, six times higher than Switzerland, seven times higher than Norway, ten times higher than in Japan, twelve times higher than Iceland)

Is there any point in continually re-posting the same stats and studies in every thread? I hardly think so. One of the countries you mentioned Ryan, has the highest rate of gun ownership in western Europe. One country you did not has effectively eliminated private gun ownership and yet their murder rate is twice that of the us and then some. The relationship that so many assume to be there simply is not.

"Obvious steps" to reduce that number would be based on what, doing something that fairly broad and overarching studies have shown does not have the intended effect? I hardly think so. Howsabout we do something that works?

Brian, you are being a fucking twat. I, for one, hope you get a warning for repeatedly ignoring the guidelines that say all caps are yelling and to be discouraged. Stop being a dick and try rational discourse on the topic. You are currently being extraordinarily rude to a group of people who have not perpetrated gun crimes. I've said it before and I still believe that you are shouting at people to do something while you sit there and do nothing but shout on the internet as if that makes you morally superior. Piss on you.

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Also, it is liars, you ignoramus.

(December 27, 2012 at 1:18 pm)Shell B Wrote: Brian, you are being a fucking twat. I, for one, hope you get a warning for repeatedly ignoring the guidelines that say all caps are yelling and to be discouraged. Stop being a dick and try rational discourse on the topic. You are currently being extraordinarily rude to a group of people who have not perpetrated gun crimes. I've said it before and I still believe that you are shouting at people to do something while you sit there and do nothing but shout on the internet as if that makes you morally superior. Piss on you.

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Also, it is liars, you ignoramus.

No, I am not morally superior to anyone. You simply are not comfortable with the way I communicate with others. I get that, if we all liked everything all the time and everyone all the time we'd be clones of each other.

I see nothing wrong with being passionate about a very real issue that HAS been ignored for far too long that affects REAL people.

Now, as far as my caps, that is a comfort issue. You are not comfortable with caps. Ok. And as far as my spelling, I have never been a great speller. And sometimes I do miss the red underline before I hit submit.

And as far as doing "nothing" everyone here, you, me, AND our disagreements are vital, every single post, even when we "shout" at each other. First and foremost it demonstrates that atheists exist. Secondly it also shows that we are not godless clones, much less clones of each other. There is no right way to be an atheist. We are still ultimately individuals, no matter our labels.

you are not passionat, you are so pushy that it`s annoying.


The rest of your post makes no sence.

Brian, it is considered shouting. It has nothing to do with whether it makes me uncomfortable. It is in the forum guidelines.

(December 27, 2012 at 3:22 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: you are not passionat, you are so pushy that it`s annoying.


The rest of your post makes no sence.

If I ever make sence or copper or nickle, please tell me.