A dispassionate way of explaining what Germans is saying is that gun ownership and gun regulations (against all intuition- I'll grant you that) do not seem to have any effect on the rate of violent crime (particularly homicide) in any given country. That a much stronger relationship can be found in social, economic, and political situations.

The reason that this is important, is that if the idea is -to lower the homicide rate, or the rate of violent crime- we have no data that suggest that this will be accomplished by stricter gun laws, or restrictive ownership policies (up to and including prohibition)...what we do have, is data that suggests something a bit less flattering. That the thing that seems simplest to grasp intuitively is not actually a determining factor. That the underlying causes for this problem you wish to address are a great deal deeper and more difficult to resolve. In essence, that guns have become a scapegoat for something altogether uglier.

A cynical way of explaining what Germans is saying is that 14 thousand homicides should be regarded as acceptable and we should not take obvious steps which would reduce that number, as homicide rates in countries with very strict gun control (and the means to enforce it) tend to be vastly lower than in the United States (four times higher than the UK and Australia, five times higher than Germany, six times higher than Switzerland, seven times higher than Norway, ten times higher than in Japan, twelve times higher than Iceland)

Is there any point in continually re-posting the same stats and studies in every thread? I hardly think so. One of the countries you mentioned Ryan, has the highest rate of gun ownership in western Europe. One country you did not has effectively eliminated private gun ownership and yet their murder rate is twice that of the us and then some. The relationship that so many assume to be there simply is not.

"Obvious steps" to reduce that number would be based on what, doing something that fairly broad and overarching studies have shown does not have the intended effect? I hardly think so. Howsabout we do something that works?

(December 27, 2012 at 2:02 am)Ryantology Wrote: A cynical way of explaining what Germans is saying is that 14 thousand homicides should be regarded as acceptable and we should not take obvious steps which would reduce that number, as homicide rates in countries with very strict gun control (and the means to enforce it) tend to be vastly lower than in the United States (four times higher than the UK and Australia, five times higher than Germany, six times higher than Switzerland, seven times higher than Norway, ten times higher than in Japan, twelve times higher than Iceland)

That is not, what I am trying to say!!!!!!!!!!!!


I never, not in a single post, stated that nothing should be done to lower the crime rate! I only stated that strickter regulations of guns werent the right solution.

I had given France as an example of a European nation which has low gun regulations and a "low" crime rate, and so does Swizerland. In Swizerland - citizens can actualy own full automatic assault rifles - which would be illegal in the US.


The homicide rate in the US is: 4,2 homicides per 100 000 people.

0,3 in Iceland, 0,6 in Norway, 0,8 Germany, 1,1 France,

You could actualy read through this statistic which lists nations by their gun regulation laws and their homicide rates.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/...world-list

And if you think the sole reason, that Germany, Norway, Japan and Iceland have lower homicide rates is because of low gun control, then you are nuts. And I hope you really dont believe this.

These countries are also in the top ten of the nations with the highest living standerds, have a low poverty rate and they are culturaly different and have are wellfare states. Which certainly to is a factor for a lower crime rate.

Brian, you are being a fucking twat. I, for one, hope you get a warning for repeatedly ignoring the guidelines that say all caps are yelling and to be discouraged. Stop being a dick and try rational discourse on the topic. You are currently being extraordinarily rude to a group of people who have not perpetrated gun crimes. I've said it before and I still believe that you are shouting at people to do something while you sit there and do nothing but shout on the internet as if that makes you morally superior. Piss on you.

---

Also, it is liars, you ignoramus.

(December 27, 2012 at 1:18 pm)Shell B Wrote: Brian, you are being a fucking twat. I, for one, hope you get a warning for repeatedly ignoring the guidelines that say all caps are yelling and to be discouraged. Stop being a dick and try rational discourse on the topic. You are currently being extraordinarily rude to a group of people who have not perpetrated gun crimes. I've said it before and I still believe that you are shouting at people to do something while you sit there and do nothing but shout on the internet as if that makes you morally superior. Piss on you.

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Also, it is liars, you ignoramus.

No, I am not morally superior to anyone. You simply are not comfortable with the way I communicate with others. I get that, if we all liked everything all the time and everyone all the time we'd be clones of each other.

I see nothing wrong with being passionate about a very real issue that HAS been ignored for far too long that affects REAL people.

Now, as far as my caps, that is a comfort issue. You are not comfortable with caps. Ok. And as far as my spelling, I have never been a great speller. And sometimes I do miss the red underline before I hit submit.

And as far as doing "nothing" everyone here, you, me, AND our disagreements are vital, every single post, even when we "shout" at each other. First and foremost it demonstrates that atheists exist. Secondly it also shows that we are not godless clones, much less clones of each other. There is no right way to be an atheist. We are still ultimately individuals, no matter our labels.

you are not passionat, you are so pushy that it`s annoying.


The rest of your post makes no sence.

Brian, it is considered shouting. It has nothing to do with whether it makes me uncomfortable. It is in the forum guidelines.

(December 24, 2012 at 12:01 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Could someone tell me, the gun nutters, please tell me why TWO FIREFIGHTERS were shot dead and two others wounded?

http://www.9news.com/news/article/306732...house-fire

COME ON YOU GUN NUTTERS, PLEASE TELL US WHY IT IS OK for guns to be as available as candy. I am sick of your fucking crap. FUCK THE NRA!

FIREFIGHTERS! TWO DEAD AND TWO WOUNDED and it wasn't a fucking water balloon that killed them.

I would just like to calmly point out that he purchased those guns illegally. As a convicted felon, he could not legally purchase it from any licensed gunsmith or firearm retailer, nor could he legally own one. NYC is one of the strictest cities in the US for gun control; you have to undergo extensive background checks on ANY firearm purchase. Oh, and, uh, the NYC police aggressively persecute individuals possessing firearms illegally. Strangely enough, this doesn't seem to stop the illegal guns trade. At all.

Didn't stop him. Gee, it's almost like banning firearms wouldn't do a damn thing, huh? It's almost like it's easy to get guns illegally or something...and it's almost like tracking them once they're on the streets is impossible so banning them wouldn't do a thing!

But this is a silly notion, of course, and I'm sure everyone here who has a stick up their ass about gun ownership is going to tell me I'm completely wrong, flying their arguments right in the face of reality...

Not to say I agree with the NRA's stance here, either. "BLAME IT ON MOVIES AND MEDIA!" they're now screaming. No, you fucking idiots, blame it on the asshole who was clearly fucking mentally disturbed and stop pushing it onto something else. The roots of the issue are much deeper than just "GUNS R KILL 4 PPL SO R BAD HURRR" or "VIOLENCE IN MOVISE MAKES PPL VIOLNT LOL." Something about American society makes us extremely belligerent. I'm not even going to say it's just one thing, either. This shit is a dendritic cancer that's seeped into our very culture and we need to figure out the REAL reason, not these half-assed suppositions people keep tossing around.

And the next person to say "guns make killing easier" is going to get chewed the fuck out. 5 minutes on google and I already have a laundry list of weapons that could be JUST as lethal, that I could procure at my local wal-mart with $50; less than the cost of your average handgun, with far more horrifying effects; shall I talk about loading a friggin' supersoaker with hydrochloric or sulfric acid, perhaps? Get that in someone's eyes, it'll blind them and eventually sear its way into their brain and kill them within moments. Spray it at a bunch of unarmed people! No, I'm not fucking joking, this shit can actually be done. Shall I tell everyone how to build a pipe bomb? Maybe a chlorine bomb? Maybe I can tell you all how to build a fucking fertilizer bomb! No, I don't need to do any of this because it would take a few minutes on google to do it yourselves, and ditto for anyone with murderous intent.

If anything, I'd rather keep guns legal because if NOTHING ELSE, the things people will do if they CAN'T get access to guns? These crazies deprived of guns and using the alternatives? That shit horrifies me far more than any fucking rifle in existence can!

So I'd rather see the underlying root of the problem addressed. I want the disease cured, not the symptoms being alleviated...or made worse.

(December 27, 2012 at 3:22 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: you are not passionat, you are so pushy that it`s annoying.


The rest of your post makes no sence.

If I ever make sence or copper or nickle, please tell me.