(January 2, 2013 at 11:51 pm)naimless Wrote: I believe I don't control what I believe. I once did, though, and that was a cool experience.

Or we could say we do control what we believe in order to suit ourselves. We just don't control what suits ourselves. We're more involved consciously than most determinists and monists allow, but of course there is something about being someone in particular which prejudices ones choices.

like napoleon said i think some people choose to ignore facts that go against their religion for whatever reason, maybe its from fears intilled in them from childhood and difficult to break free from.
I personally as a child feared hell, heaven, or eternal nothingness all equally because an eternity of anything would get insanely boring, even being on a desert island with thousands of good looking and willing tropical women would get boring after a few million years. So without the fear of any real punishment my disbelief in god like yours didnt come in one big event it was just gradual deductive reasoning

(January 3, 2013 at 1:57 am)paulpablo Wrote: even being on a desert island with thousands of good looking and willing tropical women would get boring after a few million years.

Indeed, that might well take a few million years but then, granted, it could become boring.

In answer to the OP (and after considerable thought) i would have to answer.....

YES

(January 3, 2013 at 1:20 am)whateverist Wrote:

(January 2, 2013 at 11:51 pm)naimless Wrote: I believe I don't control what I believe. I once did, though, and that was a cool experience.

Or we could say we do control what we believe in order to suit ourselves. We just don't control what suits ourselves. We're more involved consciously than most determinists and monists allow, but of course there is something about being someone in particular which prejudices ones choices.

If I could control what I believe to suit myself, I would not be an atheist.

(January 3, 2013 at 1:20 am)whateverist Wrote: Or we could say we do control what we believe in order to suit ourselves. We just don't control what suits ourselves. We're more involved consciously than most determinists and monists allow, but of course there is something about being someone in particular which prejudices ones choices.

“A man’s character is his fate.”
— Heraclitus

“We don’t see things the way they are. We see things the way we are.”
— Anais Nin

“I haven't any strength, I haven't any character, I'm a born tool. I haven't any destiny. All I have is dreams. And now other people run them.”
— The Lathe Of Heaven, Ursula K Le Guin

(January 3, 2013 at 11:02 pm)naimless Wrote:

(January 3, 2013 at 1:20 am)whateverist Wrote: Or we could say we do control what we believe in order to suit ourselves. We just don't control what suits ourselves. We're more involved consciously than most determinists and monists allow, but of course there is something about being someone in particular which prejudices ones choices.

If I could control what I believe to suit myself, I would not be an atheist.

I feel like I should send you a cake with a file in it. So sorry to hear that atheism is such a prison for you. Perhaps feeling as though you are being truthful with yourself is even more important to you than the comforts of theism?

---

(January 4, 2013 at 2:46 am)apophenia Wrote:

(January 3, 2013 at 1:20 am)whateverist Wrote: Or we could say we do control what we believe in order to suit ourselves. We just don't control what suits ourselves. We're more involved consciously than most determinists and monists allow, but of course there is something about being someone in particular which prejudices ones choices.

“A man’s character is his fate.”
— Heraclitus

“We don’t see things the way they are. We see things the way we are.”
— Anais Nin

“I haven't any strength, I haven't any character, I'm a born tool. I haven't any destiny. All I have is dreams. And now other people run them.”
— The Lathe Of Heaven, Ursula K Le Guin

I can pretty much give each of these quotes an amen. But I feel no loss of freedom in that. Free to be me, is all the free I ever hoped for. That doesn't feel like a prison cell to me because I do not start out knowing the extent of 'me'. I'll confess, I like what I've come to so far. I'll probably run out of time long before I run out new 'me' to discover.

Unless you're Sherlock Holmes clearing your brain-attic... no.

You have no control, foolish human. Everything is mine to command!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3e0EkvIEM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6SrZ-6cGVA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRTkCHE1sS4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjwiwcUKK1c

(January 4, 2013 at 10:06 am)whateverist Wrote:

(January 3, 2013 at 11:02 pm)naimless Wrote: If I could control what I believe to suit myself, I would not be an atheist.

I feel like I should send you a cake with a file in it. So sorry to hear that atheism is such a prison for you. Perhaps feeling as though you are being truthful with yourself is even more important to you than the comforts of theism?

I don't tend to trust people who claim to know the truth, and that includes many atheists. Those who claim to seek it I'm more inclined to be on the same wavelength with, regardless of religious status.

I know a lot of atheists that say I'm agnostic because I don't claim to know the future. In other words, they are 100% sure the belief they hold is true and will be true in the future.

I'm only 100% sure every belief I have encountered so far is currently not objectively true. That is to say, there is no universal truth in the concepts of deities I have experienced.

However, the same goes for experiencing other things, like drugs. You can take heroin and then decide after the experience that it didn't contain a relatively true version of the events that were happening.

I'm only fairly sure that people, if they are still around, will probably one day look back and laugh at what we currently consider free-thinking, or atheism, or truth - just like how many people here laugh at the religious beliefs people held in the past and may still hold.

Perhaps it's important to explore different, sort of, "types" of "free-will" to give you some potential for more of those kinds of "cool experiences". I'm talking as much to myself as you