(January 6, 2013 at 4:58 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Right, and that is called imagination. Which is why it is a broken concept. No standards. Make shit up to suit one's own desires.

No, it's called logic. Find the flaw in my logic if you want, but you can't just reject my argument by calling it imagination.

(January 5, 2013 at 3:31 pm)Tiberius Wrote: "Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?" is a loaded question, and a logical fallacy.

At the very most, it only denies an absolutist version of omnipotence that almost nobody believes in in the first place. The question could really be asked this way: "Can God make square circles?". Most theists I've talked to believe in a version of omnipotence in which God can perform every action that is logically possible.

By definition, omnipotence has to be absolute, doesn't it? If God has limits, then 'omnipotent' is the wrong term to describe him. If God is forced to conform to logical rules, who made those rules, and what force compels even God to act within them? If you believe that our universe must have had a creator (because 'random chance' couldn't have done it), you logically have to believe that an even higher being made the rules God has to follow. This, of course, leads either to infinite regress, or to an assertion that God made rules even he cannot break, which is the ultimate expression of the "rock God can't lift".

Perhaps the simplest and most vital reason to believe in God is that there is no higher, more powerful, being to worship. The problem is, if God is subject to any limits he cannot overcome, including the limit of 'logically possible', then he cannot be the most powerful thing in existence. Logic must be more powerful than God. And, we are left to wonder where logic comes from? Is God subject to the same dumb natural forces a secularist already believes are responsible for the universe, or is there a being even higher than God?

In either case, there's no justification for worshiping Yahweh. Either he doesn't exist, or he's merely the next step up from us in a virtually infinite hierarchy (all of which themselves would suffer from the infinite regress argument; why worship any of them, either?).

I'm still waiting for someone to say that they mistranslated something from aramaic, or hebrew, or greek, to "all-powerful". The original word meant something else.

At best, god can't convey a message properly. This is a logical statement, confirmed by evidence.

(January 6, 2013 at 5:18 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(January 6, 2013 at 4:58 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Right, and that is called imagination. Which is why it is a broken concept. No standards. Make shit up to suit one's own desires.

No, it's called logic. Find the flaw in my logic if you want, but you can't just reject my argument by calling it imagination.

Awe yes ... the ole Atheist Forums stand-by: "Nu-uh"

God can do anything.

(January 6, 2013 at 11:09 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: God can do anything.

Can he make himself not exist?

There's another one for you Tibs.

(January 6, 2013 at 11:09 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: God can do anything.

Can he create a rock he can't lift?

(January 6, 2013 at 11:12 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(January 6, 2013 at 11:09 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: God can do anything.

Can he make himself not exist?

Do you mean temporarily or permanently?

We should rename this thread "Groundhog Day."