Argument can be fun and productive. Argument in a vacuum is worthless. And short.

(January 7, 2013 at 9:47 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Argument can be fun and productive. Argument in a vacuum is worthless. And short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_DjsmkD1fw

The argument from fine tunning as it does seem like an unlikely coincidence if the universe wasn't purpose made with the intention of producing life. There is a decent case for deism there at least but a God who doesn't do anything while you don't do anything about it and it effects your life in no noticeable way at all does not a good religion make. There has to be a bit more of a follow up on these arguments of design as you can't go from deism directly to the Bible.

(January 7, 2013 at 7:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "Definitely supernatural", I'd be thrilled to hear how you figured that out.

be happy to share some with you and let you decide but you would just tell me i'm making them up.

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(January 8, 2013 at 7:04 pm)Zone Wrote: The argument from fine tunning as it does seem like an unlikely coincidence if the universe wasn't purpose made with the intention of producing life. There is a decent case for deism there at least but a God who doesn't do anything while you don't do anything about it and it effects your life in no noticeable way at all does not a good religion make. There has to be a bit more of a follow up on these arguments of design as you can't go from deism directly to the Bible.

Yes agreed wholeheartidly and even how to approach the bible even if It could be shown to go there. But to state as seems to be the position of many that there is no case for a Deity so therefore your an idiot to do so or somehow lacking in some decision making skills is pushing things a little. I find your position much more reasonable in the looser term of the word.

I might say that, sure, if you were just making shit up. Did you plan on making shit up and letting it hang? Was that going to be the extent of how you explained your path to the realization that something was definitely supernatural?

(January 10, 2013 at 2:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I might say that, sure, if you were just making shit up. Did you plan on making shit up and letting it hang? Was that going to be the extent of how you explained your path to the realization that something was definitely supernatural?

I have had lots of strange occurances, most not religious but more to confirm that there is at least a supernatural componant to our existance.
heres one of many..
I had a very disturbing dream where I dreamed I was watching the TV when the programe broke for a news flash about a crashing plane. The TV was showing the events from a news helicopter flying close and the plane had a part of its fusilage missing and people were being sucked out of a large hole in the fusilage as the plane continued to fly along. The camera crew were so close I could see the face of a passenger and hear their screams as they got pulled out of the plane and flew threw the air. I was not just upset by the film but was more upset by the tv crew as I felt that the public needed to know the news but it could have been done in such a way as to protect the dignity of the victims and allow them to die with some privacy from public gaze.... thought no more until a few days later the radio described a similar event and people being sucked out of plane as I ate my breakfast.

nothing on its own but part of a string of events that kept me aware that there is more to our existence than we know

(January 10, 2013 at 2:29 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I have had lots of strange occurances, most not religious but more to confirm that there is at least a supernatural componant to our existance.
heres one of many..
I had a very disturbing dream where I dreamed I was watching the TV when the programe broke for a news flash about a crashing plane. The TV was showing the events from a news helicopter flying close and the plane had a part of its fusilage missing and people were being sucked out of a large hole in the fusilage as the plane continued to fly along. The camera crew were so close I could see the face of a passenger and hear their screams as they got pulled out of the plane and flew threw the air. I was not just upset by the film but was more upset by the tv crew as I felt that the public needed to know the news but it could have been done in such a way as to protect the dignity of the victims and allow them to die with some privacy from public gaze.... thought no more until a few days later the radio described a similar event and people being sucked out of plane as I ate my breakfast.

nothing on its own but part of a string of events that kept me aware that there is more to our existence than we know

So what happened there is that you had a dream. Sometime later you heard of an event that was a bit like your dream and thought "magic".

You like to make the banal fantastical.

That is all it is.

(January 10, 2013 at 2:29 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I have had lots of strange occurances, most not religious but more to confirm that there is at least a supernatural componant to our existance.
heres one of many..
I had a very disturbing dream where I dreamed I was watching the TV when the programe broke for a news flash about a crashing plane. The TV was showing the events from a news helicopter flying close and the plane had a part of its fusilage missing and people were being sucked out of a large hole in the fusilage as the plane continued to fly along. The camera crew were so close I could see the face of a passenger and hear their screams as they got pulled out of the plane and flew threw the air. I was not just upset by the film but was more upset by the tv crew as I felt that the public needed to know the news but it could have been done in such a way as to protect the dignity of the victims and allow them to die with some privacy from public gaze.... thought no more until a few days later the radio described a similar event and people being sucked out of plane as I ate my breakfast.

nothing on its own but part of a string of events that kept me aware that there is more to our existence than we know

Dreams don't seem to me to be particularly supernatural........let me offer something in return.

On patrol in some terrible and non-descript part of th world I opened fire on a phantom target that seemed to be circling me (and mine) at o-dark thirty that I couldn't actually see( despite my anpvs). I'm not the only one who experienced this, other joes also opened fire, none of us had any trouble pointing our weapons, we all experienced this.

As far as we can tell......there was never anything there at all - but no single one of us will accept that we didn't hear and see -something-. Still, I can't confidently claim the supernatural......but you're willing to do so on something so innocuous as dream?

(January 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(January 10, 2013 at 2:29 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I have had lots of strange occurances, most not religious but more to confirm that there is at least a supernatural componant to our existance.
heres one of many..
I had a very disturbing dream where I dreamed I was watching the TV when the programe broke for a news flash about a crashing plane. The TV was showing the events from a news helicopter flying close and the plane had a part of its fusilage missing and people were being sucked out of a large hole in the fusilage as the plane continued to fly along. The camera crew were so close I could see the face of a passenger and hear their screams as they got pulled out of the plane and flew threw the air. I was not just upset by the film but was more upset by the tv crew as I felt that the public needed to know the news but it could have been done in such a way as to protect the dignity of the victims and allow them to die with some privacy from public gaze.... thought no more until a few days later the radio described a similar event and people being sucked out of plane as I ate my breakfast.

nothing on its own but part of a string of events that kept me aware that there is more to our existence than we know

Dreams don't seem to me to be particularly supernatural........let me offer something in return.

On patrol in some terrible and non-descript part of th world I opened fire on a phantom target that seemed to be circling me (and mine) at o-dark thirty that I couldn't actually see( despite my anpvs). I'm not the only one who experienced this, other joes also opened fire, none of us had any trouble pointing our weapons, we all experienced this.

As far as we can tell......there was never anything there at all - but no single one of us will accept that we didn't hear and see -something-. Still, I can't confidently claim the supernatural......but you're willing to do so on something so innocuous as dream?

nope.

There are no good arguments for a deity. The only evidence of biological cognition exists in evolutionary processes.

Having said that. I would prefer, if forced to make a choice of a deity, one more like the Jeffersonian god where it simply started everything and stepped aside.

Or a a cognition that is using us like lab mice to learn something itself but is unaware of our suffering.

But even those still have the scientific problems and the logical problems same as any other invisible being claim.