1: It is possible that there have been many creators... it is also possible that there was only one... it is further possible that the universe was created completely naturally... and under some definitions it is possible that a divine being created this universe.

Do I personally think there was a creator(s) of some sort? I'm 50/50 on that. Do I personally think it likely that the creator was divine? No. But I am willing to entertain the idea

2: Why would the toymaker want his toys to worship him? And why should the toys worship the toymaker? I don't understand the premise of appreciating those you respect by groveling nor by singing... as Darwinian says... it depends on what you mean by 'worship'

3: I have made comparisons of the sort. However, the primary western exposure is to Christianity... and I recognize that my perception of Islam is likely interpreted differently than your own. I also recognize that there are many different schools of Islamic thought, and that Islam is equally open to interpretation as any other religion.

(October 23, 2009 at 2:40 pm)Wael El-Manzalawy Wrote:
We are living in an age of conflicts and tensions.

Yep

Quote: Internal peace and happiness are really seeked for by many people. A human needs to live in tranquality,real tranquality that is perminent and not drug-induced.

nothing wrong with the later

Quote: But fear of injust superior powers,failure,enemies and the endless chain of fears are the enemies of this tranquality.

No but fear of some mythology believing nutter blowing himself and killing loads of innocent people for his 72 white raisins, are the enemies of tranquility

Quote: In Islam,believing in Allah and His Most High Names is the root of our faith.The fruits of this faith are innumerable.We are limited here to the subject of internal peace.The cure of all psychological problems springs of our faith that Allah is AlRahman "The All-Merciful".

You also believe in the subjugation of women because you are all to pathetically insecure, to allow them to have a life, which is why you believe that rape victims should be stoned to death as adulterers, no matter what the age, if your daughter disrespects you you kill them and hide behind the facade of "honor".........you haven't a clue what Honor is.

Quote: Whatever we are facing in our lives,we believe that Allah Al-Mighty is more kind to us than our own mothers.Can a mother throw her own baby into fire? Allah is more Merciful to us than our own mothers. Will He torture us if we are believers and faithful?

AHH so this is why you treat women like crap because the "man in the sky" knows better?

Quote: Then let`s face our lives with internal peace as long as we believe that nobody and nothing can harm us.

See previous statement regarding myth believers

Quote: "Praise be to Allah, who hath guided us to this (felicity):never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of Allah: Indeed it was the truth."

He hasn't guided me and I certainly wouldn't want his grubby hands near me, even if they existed.

(October 23, 2009 at 3:52 pm)Saerules Wrote: 1: It is possible that there have been many creators... it is also possible that there was only one... it is further possible that the universe was created completely naturally... and under some definitions it is possible that a divine being created this universe.

Do I personally think there was a creator(s) of some sort? I'm 50/50 on that. Do I personally think it likely that the creator was divine? No. But I am willing to entertain the idea

2: Why would the toymaker want his toys to worship him? And why should the toys worship the toymaker? I don't understand the premise of appreciating those you respect by groveling nor by singing... as Darwinian says... it depends on what you mean by 'worship'

3: I have made comparisons of the sort. However, the primary western exposure is to Christianity... and I recognize that my perception of Islam is likely interpreted differently than your own. I also recognize that there are many different schools of Islamic thought, and that Islam is equally open to interpretation as any other religion.

Hi Saerules,

I invite you to read these two articles:

The Falseness Of The Evolution Theory
Wael El-Manzalawy

The God has created the sky, the Earth, the sun, the moon, the sea, the stars.......etc. He has created us and He has given us many gifts. The God has given us the brain, the eyes, the ears, the tongue, the heart, the stomach......etc. But some people say that human beings have developed from a single cell. This theory is completely wrong. I invite you to read the following four points and to rethink:

I- Bring a single amoebic cell and do whatever experiments you want and create a human being or another developed creature. Use all the modern techniques and prove that The Evolution Theory is true.

II- Human beings have lived on the Earth for - at least - many thousands of years. Why human beings did not develop to new creatures?

III- The Evolution Theory is not a scientific theory, but it is a political theory. In the past, the church had tortured scientists. Many scientists wanted to get rid of the church. So, The Evolution Theory appeared to get rid of the religion and the church.

IV- The resemblance between the different creatures does not mean that they have developed from each other. I will give you this simple example. When you look at a bicycle, a cart, a car and a train, you will find that they all have wheels. Can you say that the bicycle has developed to a cart which has developed to a car?

The Evolution Theory is completely wrong. But some scientists still defend The Evolution Theory because they hate religion and not because they think that it is true. Indeed the chruch had tortured many scientists. Indeed the church had fought science. But Islam never tortured chemists, botanists, physicists.....etc. In The Islamic Civilization, we never knew the struggle between Islam and experimental science. I - as a Muslim - respect experimental science. I invite you to read the article again and you will find that scientific thinking leads you to the falseness of The Evolution Theory.

The God In Islam
Wael El-Manzalawy

Many secular persons deny the presence of the God. I am trying here to convince them that there is a God who has created the universe.

Many secular persons will argue that the God is unseen and they believe only in what they see. The God is unseen but we can see the evidences of His presence. The earth, the sky, the stars, the moon, the sun, the sea and the harmony of the universe are all evidences that there is a God who has created the universe.

The harmony and the greatness of the universe are evidences of the Wisdom and Greatness of the Creator. Let`s assume that there is no creator, then what is the cause of the harmony and greatness of the universe? Did the sun, the moon, the land, the sea. The stars ….etc have a meeting and decided what to do? They are too many and everyone would want the universe as he wants. We are sure that the sun, the moon ….etc are not wise. Then we can say that the harmony and greatness of the universe are clear evidences that there is a Wise and Great Creator.

In Islam, we believe in the One and the Only God. In the dayafter, the believers will enter the Heaven while the non-believers will be punished. In Islam, we believe that the God has no sons. We are not like christians who believe that the God has a son. This belief is completely untrue and illogical. If the God decided something and His son decided another contradicting thing, what will happen?

I ask the readers of this article to think deeply about the presence of the God. If you came to a conclusion that there is a God who has created the universe, please ask the God from your hearts to guide you to the true religion. I am sure that the God will guide you to Islam. I invite the readers to read the Holy Quran to know more about Islam.

(October 23, 2009 at 2:40 pm)Wael El-Manzalawy Wrote:
We are living in an age of conflicts and tensions.Internal peace and happiness are really seeked for by many people.A human needs to live in tranquality,real tranquality that is perminent and not drug-induced.But fear of injust superior powers,failure,enemies and the endless chain of fears are the enemies of this tranquality.
In Islam,believing in Allah and His Most High Names is the root of our faith.The fruits of this faith are innumerable.We are limited here to the subject of internal peace.The cure of all psychological problems springs of our faith that Allah is AlRahman "The All-Merciful". Whatever we are facing in our lives,we believe that Allah Al-Mighty is more kind to us than our own mothers.Can a mother throw her own baby into fire? Allah is more Merciful to us than our own mothers. Will He torture us if we are believers and faithful? Then let`s face our lives with internal peace as long as we believe that nobody and nothing can harm us."Praise be to Allah, who hath guided us to this (felicity):never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of Allah: Indeed it was the truth."

Good for you. That you believe in this. hock:

1. I believe there was a creator but I also believe that it cannot be known without faith

2. I should worship because God deserves it

3. Yup. Islam is contradictory

(October 23, 2009 at 3:27 pm)Wael El-Manzalawy Wrote: 1- Do you think that there is a Creator who has created the universe?
The discussions may take a very long time. But if we came to an agreement that there is a Creator who has created the universe, then we can move to the second question:

No there is no creator

Quote: 2- Should we worship the Creator of the universe or not?
If we came to an agreement that we should worship the Creator of the universe, then we can move to the third question:

Since your creator is the same as the christian and the jew, I certainly wouldnt worship a petty minded tyrannical sadistic aswipe if i believed that he really existed.

Quote: 3- Have you made a comparison between Islam and other doctrines?[/size]

YES as you all come from the same source then it isnt hard, islam, christianity and judaism for a start all have the same goal, subjugate people, convert them and those that wont convert kill them. You all claim to be a peaceful belief system but all your works are full of rape, murder, genocide, incest etc, you talk about peace when the real translation of the word "islam" is submission submission to a male dominant society that worships an unproven deity.

I am now of down the pub.

A

Actually... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution has been proven to be correct Evolution is the statement that species change (aka: evolve) over time. It is currently the dominant unifying concept of modern biology

Anyway, onto the more interesting topic. Why would a person argue that they must see something to believe it exists or not? I am not looking outside my house at the moment... but I do not believe that there is a Ferrari parked outside my residence I am open to the possibility of course... but I would certainly not be convinced of it until I either see it, or discover its presence in some other way

All of those listed things (though some, like myself, do not believe that the universe is in any harmony whatsoever) can just as easily be held as evidence of a mortal creator... or several creators... or many creators... or a completely natural existence... or as the work of the Christian God(s?)... or as the work of Islamic God(s?)... or even as the gentle ripple of a Computer Tiger's singing.

Under a completely naturalistic process... all of those things are explained perfectly well... which could be considered as evidence for both intelligent design or naturalistic process. I always found it interesting that 'Wise' is not an attribute usually applied to the Christian God... how interesting that it is a valued concept to Islam

Yes, that is one of the strangest and most absurd things about Christianity. Do you consider Allah to be all-loving or jealous?

---

(October 23, 2009 at 4:09 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: 1. I believe there was a creator but I also believe that it cannot be known without faith

2. I should worship because God deserves it

3. Yup. Islam is contradictory

Number one is indeed true. Number two is debatable (which we debate often enough, i think ). And three is I think probable... although I am interested in hearing how it is interpreted by Wael.

Pub visit delayed

(October 23, 2009 at 4:02 pm)Wael El-Manzalawy Wrote: But some people say that human beings have developed from a single cell. This theory is completely wrong.

Yep i started of life as a single fertilised cell, and so did you and so did every living thing

Quote: II- Human beings have lived on the Earth for - at least - many thousands of years. Why human beings did not develop to new creatures?

We are for a start there are more people being born with out an appendix, but evolution takes time, you are circumcised, why did your all powerful god not create you without one? why after so many generations are you still born with one which then has to be cut from you...........if god gave you one why do you disfigure the body he has given you?

Quote: III- The Evolution Theory is not a scientific theory, but it is a political theory. In the past, the church had tortured scientists. Many scientists wanted to get rid of the church. So, The Evolution Theory appeared to get rid of the religion and the church.

rubbish .............you might want to study for a while, 150 years ago it was a theory now it is proven fact.

Quote: IV- The resemblance between the different creatures does not mean that they have developed from each other. I will give you this simple example. When you look at a bicycle, a cart, a car and a train, you will find that they all have wheels. Can you say that the bicycle has developed to a cart which has developed to a car?

Actually you can a car is 2 bicycles joined together, and that is what the earliest cars looked like. but then you try to prove something by using non living examples, which is one of the silliest mistakes you can make.

Quote: The Evolution Theory is completely wrong. But some scientists still defend The Evolution Theory because they hate religion and not because they think that it is true. Indeed the chruch had tortured many scientists. Indeed the church had fought science. But Islam never tortured chemists, botanists, physicists.....etc. In The Islamic Civilization, we never knew the struggle between Islam and experimental science. I - as a Muslim - respect experimental science. I invite you to read the article again and you will find that scientific thinking leads you to the falseness of The Evolution Theory.

The second most common word in the koran after allah is knowledge (so i am told), you might want to go and find some knowledge

Quote: In the dayafter, the believers will enter the Heaven while the non-believers will be punished. In Islam, we believe that the God has no sons. We are not like christians who believe that the God has a son. This belief is completely untrue and illogical. If the God decided something and His son decided another contradicting thing, what will happen?

you kill them like you would your daughters?

Quote: please ask the God from your hearts to guide you to the true religion.

I already am a Pastafarian

Quote: I am sure that the God will guide you to Islam. I invite the readers to read the Holy Quran to know more about Islam.

Yep started reading it while i was in Brunei, very like the christian bible, but not a surprise as they are based on the same old jewish stuff, alot more blood than the bible though, and your treatment of women, lower than a worm in the pecking order of things.............not for me

A



[/quote]

Hi Saerules,
This is a letter that I have sent to a friend. I think that it will interesting for you to read it:

Hi Friend,
How are you?
You told me in your message that you believe that there is a God, but you don't go to the church.
I have discussed many atheists and I used to ask them 3 questions:
1- Do you think that there is a Creator who has created the universe?
2- Should we worship the Creator of the universe or not?
3- Have you made a comparison between Islam and other doctrines?
You answered the first question: Do you think that there is a Creator who has created the universe?
by saying :"Yes"
Then, let's move to the second question: Should we worship the Creator of the universe or not?
Your father and mother were the reason for your birth. They brought you up and gave you many things. Should you thank your father and mother or not?
I think that the spontaneous answer should be :"Yes"
The God has created you. He gave you many things: brain, eyes, ears, arms, heart, stomach........etc. Should you thank the God or not?
Please answer by "Yes" or "No".
I wish you good luck.

If he exists... then I don't see anything wrong with thanking him for it. I do see things wrong with groveling, begging, and excessively laying down praise before him... should you grovel, beg, and excessively praise your parents?