(January 21, 2013 at 10:16 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Where, exactly, have I contradicted myself?

You haven't contradicted yourself. By your own words, you state that God is at odds with your definition. And I have shown you how your definition is wrong.

Take a moment to address my argument instead of continually addressing your own.

(January 22, 2013 at 12:52 am)Celi Wrote: How could the ideal human world not be something that humans would want?

Humans want salt sugar and fat, yet a McDonald's diet of exactly that will kill you.

Human success, as seen in the 1st world, produces epidemics of suicide, obesity, etc. This is natures means of restoring balance.

Scientists have stated that life on earth could never have begun without the natural processes of tectonic activity.

Nature is good. That is the big picture, given my world view. Given your world view (sans God), it's all a bit hopeless.

(January 22, 2013 at 5:01 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Nature is good. That is the big picture, given my world view. Given your world view (sans God), it's all a bit hopeless.

Why hopeless?

(January 22, 2013 at 5:01 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 22, 2013 at 12:52 am)Celi Wrote: How could the ideal human world not be something that humans would want?

Humans want salt sugar and fat, yet a McDonald's diet of exactly that will kill you.

Human success, as seen in the 1st world, produces epidemics of suicide, obesity, etc. This is natures means of restoring balance.

Scientists have stated that life on earth could never have begun without the natural processes of tectonic activity.

Nature is good. That is the big picture, given my world view. Given your world view (sans God), it's all a bit hopeless.

You know next to nothing about my worldview. Atheism isn't a worldview, and neither is it synonymous with nihilism. I don't think nature is bad.

More on topic: why the hell would God set the world up like that? Why would he use "epidemics of suicide and obesity" to pilot his well-oiled machine? If the world was set up with the good of humans specifically in mind, a horrible thing like suicide wouldn't exist, or, if it did, it wouldn't be what the universe's manager intentionally used for any reason.

I can totally understand how some aspects of the universe could suggest that an intelligent mind was behind them, but I certainly don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that the universe was created and is maintained by someone who wants what's best for the human race. That's what Satan is for in Christianity: a scapegoat for the imperfection of the world.

(January 22, 2013 at 11:05 am)pocaracas Wrote: Why hopeless?

Purpose + meaning = hope

Without those there is no hope. Some if not most atheists don't see that as a bad thing.

Atheism doesn't prevent one's own life from having purpose and meaning.

If anything, it is more meaningful and purposeful to be atheist, because as a theist, your purpose is a meaningless fraud. You're wasting your life because your stupid faith tells you that there's an afterlife and it's more important that the one you're living now. Rest assured, I make no such mistake.

It does mean that human life, as a whole, has no meaning or purpose. But who the fuck cares? We do fine without it, and the illusion of it does you no good.

(January 22, 2013 at 4:05 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 22, 2013 at 11:05 am)pocaracas Wrote: Why hopeless?

Purpose + meaning = hope

Without those there is no hope. Some if not most atheists don't see that as a bad thing.

The universe doesn't owe us a sense of hope. Plus, that equation makes no sense. Hope is the feeling of expectation and desire for something to happen or present itself. It can also be used to mean a feeling of trust, or be a grounds for believing that something good may happen.
Purpose + meaning = purpose and meaning.
Or perhaps you're talking about an entirely different, made up concept and are just using the word "hope" as a carrier for your new meaning.

Besides, we Atheists create our own sense purpose to achieve a sense of fulfilment, and our life has all the more meaning to it, as we know it's the only one we're gonna get, so we try to live it out to the best we can.

To be honest, I don't see why our existence must have a meaning or purpose. You're alive right now, so why not get the most out of it, instead of worshipping and running in circles, being directed by the invisible, non-tangible sky man, who seems to be playing an awfully long game of hide and seek with humanity. Get real man, your world view is no fun at all. It sucks dry the joys of life by imposing useless rules and regulations which only serve to constrict your already limited existence.

Hope for something is a subjective experience of a type of subjective purpose.... a sense of at least subjective meaning of one's own consciousness is required if not to experience this, then at least to enhance it.

(January 22, 2013 at 11:26 am)Celi Wrote: You know next to nothing about my worldview.

All I said about your world view was that it was sans God. That's all I needed to say to make the generalisation. I accept that there may be exceptions.

In other words, you were careful to cover yourself because this shit is complicated