(January 25, 2013 at 11:17 am)fr0d0 Wrote: sans God, it all looks very unfair.

And what if it is?

(January 25, 2013 at 11:24 am)pocaracas Wrote: And what if it is?

If it is then your outlook is bleak. If hate wins sometimes, your position would be to take that into account. Instead of a happy, positive person, you would be a sometimes cruel, hurt person. This is simply a result of your world view.

(January 25, 2013 at 2:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 25, 2013 at 11:24 am)pocaracas Wrote: And what if it is?

If it is then your outlook is bleak. If hate wins sometimes, your position would be to take that into account. Instead of a happy, positive person, you would be a sometimes cruel, hurt person. This is simply a result of your world view.

I believe that good isn't always rewarded and evil isn't always punished, but I don't find this bleak at all. Believe it or not, I am a fairly positive person, and I have at least three different mental conditions that end in 'disorder'. I just don't get why you think what I believe is incompatible with a happy, positive personality.

You neglected to actually draw a link between not believing the world is perfect and being 'cruel and hurt'. I'm not even sure if I would be happier in such a world, because I can't conceive of what it would be like.

(January 25, 2013 at 2:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If it is then your outlook is bleak. If hate wins sometimes, your position would be to take that into account. Instead of a happy, positive person, you would be a sometimes cruel, hurt person. This is simply a result of your world view.

I accept that hate wins sometimes. Hate wins a lot, and for long stretches of time; the dominance of Christianity and Islam for so many centuries is proof that organized hatred has a long life.

But, I also believe that it is getting better. Slowly. As Christianity becomes ever more neutered, it becomes less hateful and dangerous. As reason becomes the standard for explaining the world, so many prejudices are revealed to be meaningless and artificial. It won't ever be perfect or even close to it, there will still be ignorant religionists and hateful people of all other kinds.

But, when hate is no longer allowed institutional organization in the form of religion, hate will win less frequently than it does now, and it has in the past, when God's big religions made hatred and prejudice the standard practice for a vast number of human beings.

I feel extremely hopeful for the future, especially if it has no place for people like you.

(January 25, 2013 at 2:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 25, 2013 at 11:24 am)pocaracas Wrote: And what if it is?

If it is then your outlook is bleak. If hate wins sometimes, your position would be to take that into account. Instead of a happy, positive person, you would be a sometimes cruel, hurt person. This is simply a result of your world view.

Like Celi, I don't find my outlook to be bleak.
I can't imagine why you say that...
Sometimes, I may be a bit nasty, but most times I am a very nice person.
My "world view" leads to a great appreciation of this life, given that it is the only one I have and it's finite. And that is something that lifts my spirit and keeps me much happier to be alive than you with your world view where life is almost worthless, given the upcoming infinite after-life.

(January 25, 2013 at 7:25 pm)Ryantology Wrote: there will still be ignorant religionists and hateful people of all other kinds.

Here's looking at you kid

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(January 25, 2013 at 7:26 pm)pocaracas Wrote: I don't find my outlook to be bleak.
I can't imagine why you say that

Your world view dictates it. It's what underlies your reasoning. Of course in the short term there are benefits to positivity. How else would you see the potential in my world view, and how would I reason to hold it?

I'm not saying it's impossible for you to know happiness. I'm saying the bigger picture is bleak ... because you can't reason beyond the ultimate fact of injustice which over arches your world view.

What sustains your contentment, when the going gets tough? What resolve can you dig deep into to get you through? I'm not talking about some fake hope of something distant. I'm talking about a reasoned assurance shaping my thinking now, in the present.

Why feel the need to attack that?

(January 25, 2013 at 8:38 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 25, 2013 at 7:26 pm)pocaracas Wrote: I don't find my outlook to be bleak.
I can't imagine why you say that

Your world view dictates it. It's what underlies your reasoning. Of course in the short term there are benefits to positivity. How else would you see the potential in my world view, and how would I reason to hold it?

I'm not saying it's impossible for you to know happiness. I'm saying the bigger picture is bleak ... because you can't reason beyond the ultimate fact of injustice which over arches your world view.

What sustains your contentment, when the going gets tough? What resolve can you dig deep into to get you through? I'm not talking about some fake hope of something distant. I'm talking about a reasoned assurance shaping my thinking now, in the present.

Why feel the need to attack that?

So you're comfortable in your belief that an agent of ultimate justice exists in the Universe.
And you consciously choose that belief, because it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling...am I right?
And then you come to an atheist forum and complain that people attack that belief... What did you expect?

(January 25, 2013 at 6:40 pm)Celi Wrote: You neglected to actually draw a link between not believing the world is perfect and being 'cruel and hurt'.

I thought it was obvious. If you accept that injustice happens, then you live by that. You have less reason to be just yourself, because that would to be to put yourself at a disadvantage in how you understand the world to operate. Do you see how this would be different if you understood there to be complete justice? How a person rationalising justice prevailing might have a totally different outlook to yourself?

I find it interesting that our ('western'?) criminal Justice systems are based on the religious concept of forgiveness. The irreligious answer to injustice is the chopping off of hands/ tit for tat vigilante type justice. There is no real justification I can see in a secular court for forgiveness. I can see that falling apart as society loses its religion. It is unsustainable. Thoughts?

Alternately, a person might simply be good-natured and thus very unlikely to engage in unjust behaviors (unjustified murder for instance).

But believing in an eternal justice that will punish/reward you in a 'next life' certainly does have the potential to change a less good-natured person's understanding of 'what can I get away with?'

Interesting yeah. I felt a difference when I became a Christian in my regard for the law. I felt it was serving me rather than being under threat of it. Fear is what rules the guilty.

Why are we good? I've never been bad. I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have profited me more and toy with the idea of being bad to get what bad people have, if that makes sense. Toy as in try it out a little lol