(February 4, 2013 at 8:12 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: How about if you'd take a course on philosophy, and recognize that the brain never stops developing unless it is in stasis

I didn't know they taught biological development in philosophy. However, I'm not talking about brain development. I'm talking about cognitive development. You still haven't even skimmed that article, huh?

(February 4, 2013 at 8:12 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Or... more importantly, you just use your head for a moment, and think of a time when the consequences of an action you've made as an 'adult' turned out differently than you expected to. We live in the moment, or for the near future, for that which we can see... 15 years from now: DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA, at all? Because if you do... that's rather optimistic of ya

Because we really cannot see the future, and I'm really not about to excuse away people's stupidity with 'oh, but their brain isn't developed enough to do that without judging the consequences 'properly''... value systems are subjective, and humans will not see everything coming until they perfectly mathematize their little universe.

I think you believe what you want and no amount to science will change it. Fine. Children have the same cognitive abilities as adults. But wait-- They don't! In this context, we're talking about pre-pubesent kids. These aren't teens (who have reached Formal Operational Stage, since you didn't read the article), they're children who haven't hit puberty. They probably aren't aware of the function of their balls, let alone the consequences of removing them. Not amount to reasoning and explanation will help these children to understand how this would effect their future love lives, their abilities to have children, the lack of testosterone, ect. They probably have never even kissed someone romantically or thought about children as anything other than their peers. Your argument is based on a word game about the wrong topic.

(February 4, 2013 at 9:42 pm)Annik Wrote: I didn't know they taught biological development in philosophy. However, I'm not talking about brain development. I'm talking about cognitive development. You still haven't even skimmed that article, huh?

I already know what the article says, and you know I do: we've had a very similar discussion before. Don't make the same mistakes as you did last time.

We're using the same cognition, right? "the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses."

Because if we are, then I'm afraid that is closely related how much (and the quality of that which) we have experienced, and it is *not a biological concern at all*... it is a psychological and philosophical one (and chemistry, but you don't care) And if it *IS* a biological concern: it is only so as far as brain development, and no further.

Quote:I think you believe what you want and no amount to science will change it.

I think you make ridiculous assertions, and no amount of me telling you that you're doing so will stop them

Quote:Fine. Children have the same cognitive abilities as adults. But wait-- They don't! In this context, we're talking about pre-pubesent kids.

You have to be using a different cognition than I am, because as far as I can tell, the only thing separating the two cognitively is experience and maybe a skosh of senses (not enough to really matter much, mind... I would argue that their perceptivity increases, if indeed anything).

Quote:These aren't teens (who have reached Formal Operational Stage, since you didn't read the article), they're children who haven't hit puberty.

You're arguing a different stage of the brain than last time (still doesn't matter). Does this mystical event only occur when their pituitary gland goes 'oh hey, time to start dat baby-maker up.'?

Quote:They probably aren't aware of the function of their balls, let alone the consequences of removing them. Not amount to reasoning and explanation will help these children to understand how this would effect their future love lives, their abilities to have children, the lack of testosterone, ect.

If you can teach them the function of mathematics, and the consequences for not following mathematics... and if you can make them aware of their hair and the consequences for growing it out too long: You can teach them the function of their balls (they had a class on this when I was like, 11. I wanted to stay home. The other girls got their class on this a year earlier and were getting it again, and my parents didn't vouch for me to go with them so...). And I had known the function of them since I was 8 and discovered the internet on our super-slow modem. I think it was before wikipedia, even... not sure.

Sure, I didn't know the *absolutely positive* consequences for me removing my balls at the time, but that's me, and I wasn't certain of things at the time. Other people might be deadly serious at the same age, and THAT is the key. I mean, if they maintain that for a year or two years or THREE YEARS: let them do it. Seriously. Fucking get them castrated. If you haven't talked them out of it in three years with your reasoning: you're never gonna, because they understand what you don't: what they want.

Course, that could change in five years. So what: it was their choice, and you fought them hard on it. I'm sure you won't be complaining about your increased influence on their life when they'd normally be hard to control. Reasoning and explanation *go a long long ways* to helping them understand what it means for their future, and hey: pictures help, demonstrating these things to them helps. Crying that they aren't old enough to watch sex, not ready to see surgery, emotionally unable to read testimonies (BOTH POSITIVE *AND* NEGATIVE) of people who had the same done to them or who got such done to them... and these same people believe that children are unable to process these things that "oh they just wouldn't understand!"?

Quote:They probably have never even kissed someone romantically or thought about children as anything other than their peers. Your argument is based on a word game about the wrong topic.

I dunno... I was kissing jessie romantically when I was five and she four and a half. I was discussing marriage with an older woman and thinking about what it meant when I was four. I went through childhood, and I remember a lot of it... and that's where my argument is based: My experience as a child, however exceptional it was... remained an experience. And I've been told stories of my childhood by my mother, father, friends, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, and grandparents. All people who have experienced a part of that childhood, and that's where my argument is based: experience, and thinking about it.

As far as cognition is concerned... I'm fairly far ahead of the game here. Don't make me turn this into a demonstration off of a word game, I do it all the time, and have afforded you a great deal more respect than I normally would have.

(February 4, 2013 at 6:49 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Have you considered that the parents might have sexually abused their children in other ways with simply another justification?

Of course. That does not change my argument.

Quote:There are psychological reasons for it, those reasons *usually* surface hard around puberty... the real question is what is a 'child', and what makes you think that they can live as something that isn't themselves for so long as to make it past an arbitrary age line where their parents disbecome part of the process?

Puberty is complete roughly four years before a person reaches adulthood. It is hardly a stretch to expect a person to wait and then make that choice independently.

Quote:Because the likelihood of a teenager not having sex until they are legally adults is... 'immense'.

Oh, sweetie. That was a strawman. I did not saying anything about the likelihood. I said I prefer it that way. If you're more concerned about your sex organs than your schoolwork at that age, your parents need to redirect your attention. Furthermore, my genitals have never ruled my life so much that I found it impossible to live for thinking about them. I am rather certain I could manage a relatively happy existence for a few years with a penis. It would be uncomfortable and I would not be a huge fan, but I would rather do that than have my parents involved in a gender reassignment surgery that could go wrong. Plastic surgery, which is what this is, is not something a minor should undergo. It is elective and dangerous. When you are an adult, go ahead and take that risk. Until that time, stop thinking about your genitals and get some homework done.

(February 4, 2013 at 11:01 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(February 4, 2013 at 6:49 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Have you considered that the parents might have sexually abused their children in other ways with simply another justification?

Of course. That does not change my argument.

Didn't say it did... just that there's more ways to look at it.

Quote:Puberty is complete roughly four years before a person reaches adulthood. It is hardly a stretch to expect a person to wait and then make that choice independently.

Is it? I dunno... assuming your right: 4 years seemed a long time to me, and I really didn't care if I made it or not. Fighting an uphill battle to start fixing something that has made you miserable for about 3/7ths of your life isn't easy, and in a common school environment: it really isn't worth it.

I was actually given the option to start HRT when I was 16, by a drug dealer of course... I was scared. Not of HRT, not of the dealer, not of what it would do to me: but of what others would do to me. These kinds of decisions should never be independent ones, if someone has shown an unshaken belief for years: it should *definitely* be with the support of those who love that person, however grudgingly given. I've been around trans forums, met some score of real life transpeople... and listening to their stories and continuing experiences, and in general: it's sick.

Adulthood as an age-line is meaningless, I've said this since I came here at 15, and I was told that it would (magically) make sense after I crossed that age line... I'm going to cross it for a second time soon, so far no sense made.

Quote:Oh, sweetie. That was a strawman. I did not saying anything about the likelihood. I said I prefer it that way. If you're more concerned about your sex organs than your schoolwork at that age, your parents need to redirect your attention. Furthermore, my genitals have never ruled my life so much that I found it impossible to live for thinking about them.

No, Shelly: that was a joke Someone needs to take their serious cap off every once in a while.

* Violet gives Shellerby a party hat.

Hehe... my parents needed to redirect my attention from pain, fear, and desperately clutching the slightest of self-esteem I could find... to boring schoolwork that would be ongoing at the same time? Oh but they sure tried. When beatings didn't work, they tried removing all of my game systems and hiding them, when that didn't work they grounded me, when that didn't work they removed a number of the books from my room and hid them, when that didn't work they took me to psychologists who wanted to inhibit me so I could focus on schoolwork (thankfully, my parents wouldn't do such to me, and I'm very glad for it. Don't trust shrinks, of course.), and eventually they realized that none of these things mattered to me, and so they made a deal with me to do my homework and I'd get them. I did homework occasionally more often so that my entertainment wasn't reduced to Irish CDs and my own little world (imagination, can't rob that from me without drugs, and if you do: you suck).

My genitals don't rule my life, Shell... my face, my hair, my trachea, my hands, my feet, my arms, my legs, my ass, my boobs, my face, my shoulders, my genitals: these all are a part of my life, and when heaped together make up a good portion of it. My emotions are another major portion of my life. And socialization is a major part of it too (insight to a few years ago). Without even getting into my sex life: ALL of these things are *massively* affected by testosterone going through my system, and even more so since it didn't match what I am. Actually, if I had it to do again, I'd sacrifice ever having orgasm again for it... luckily, removing the scrotum and testes isn't the same as removing the penis (take that, pituitary gland!).

Edit: made a word mistake, fixed it.

Quote:I am rather certain I could manage a relatively happy existence for a few years with a penis. It would be uncomfortable and I would not be a huge fan, but I would rather do that than have my parents involved in a gender reassignment surgery that could go wrong. Plastic surgery, which is what this is, is not something a minor should undergo. It is elective and dangerous. When you are an adult, go ahead and take that risk. Until that time, stop thinking about your genitals and get some homework done.

It's not the penis that'll really get to you, it's that damn scrotum. Though, the penis sucks too, don't get me wrong I would much rather have had my parents (positively) involved in my life, I've fought pretty damn hard for them to see me as a girl for six and a half years... and every phonecall I have with them remains more bitter than sweet.

... Having parents involved in GRS is probably the best thing that could happen for someone. Having them involved in the decision-making process of a teenager is probably the best thing that could ever be done for that teenager (assuming the parents aren't absolute shitheads, hehe). This specific plastic surgery itself shouldn't be undergone until the person has stopped physically growing, fewer potential problems. An orchiectomy, on the other hand, is financially best done as early as possible if it's going to be done. Saves on a ton of unneeded risks from androgen blockers, saves on an always increasing total expense until SRS. Retains penis if one finds they want it in the future (gender-fluidity and all that). Not to mention a zero % chance to make anyone pregnant ever And one can still get testosterone into their system if they find this isn't the path for them (transmen do this all the time, and it gives them a *lot* of sex drive).

Until you've stopped thinking that transpeople get 'sex changes' because of their genitals first and foremost, you should probably stop commenting on trans-topics as if you know what they're about

The thing is, you can be positively involved with your child's life and help them get through to making the choice in adulthood. Given that I have not and will not beat children, I'm looking at it from a different perspective. Always assume I mean supportive parents, as that is what we should all be.

(February 4, 2013 at 8:02 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote:

(February 4, 2013 at 2:45 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I'm a classical singer, in fact, referencing the OP, Lascia Ch'io Pianga was one of the arias I performed for my senior recital... beautiful piece by Handel.

The castrati have always been fascinating to me. They were the rock stars of their time. I envy the flexibility that they had. No matter how much I practiced, I could never quiiiiiite get to the level of a castrato, and I'm a coloratura soprano.

That being said, in my opinion, pre-pubescent castration is unethical. I don't think a pre-pubescent boy can consent to that type of thing. Just the fact that he's pre-pubescent means he hasn't matured enough to consent to permanently alter his body. Back in the days of the castrati, their families made the decision for them, usually due to monetary or health reasons. Castration was a treatment for many childhood diseases back then, and a beautiful singing voice was often just a silver-lining to the cloud of losing one's balls.

I like you

Well... pre-pubescent people *can* consent. Observe 6-year old Darla: Darla, would you like to go to your friend Dalton's birthday party? "Oh yes, momma!"

Or otherwise, deny consent... Observe 6-year old David: David, do you mind if I take the dishes from your room and clean them? "NO! It's my room!"

Of course, then their parents overrule them... because might makes right

.......

Ultimately, the period at which one's ability to consent should be observed is largely individual and it is often 'decided' by those with the power to overrule what would have been the one's decisions had said people not been there. This is sometimes good, sometimes bad... it really is a mixed bag. There's a massive potential for abuse, right with a massive potential for allowing perhaps too much.

And that's why I'm against branding much of anything as strictly evil or good. Although... there are always bananas

I like you too. And bananas.

I totally agree with you. I'm just saying, that for the most part, prepubescent boys aren't usually equipped to deal with a decision like that. Especially when it comes down to something as arbitrary as making sounds come out of his body, although believe me- I know how tough and beautiful it is. However it is not a decision relevant to his day and age, being that there isn't a call for that sort of art because the art form the OP highlighted is outdated, and would likely not bring the money that it used to. Add to that, castration is rarely a solution for physical health any longer.

I agree with you; some kids are capable of deciding for themselves, but largely, IMO, the castration of prepubescent boys is unethical. Preteens and teens aren't exactly known for making the best decisions.

(February 4, 2013 at 2:16 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Circumcision doesn't involve a choice usually.

War affects others negatively against their will.

These are poor comparisons.

Hmmmmm... not really. Being a castrato has positive and negative effects.

Positive effects:

• Lovely singing voice.
  
• Status.
  
• Fame.
  
• A decent living.

Negative effects:

• Can't have children.
  
• Can't have intimate relationships.
  
• Weak bones.

Now you *may* be able to strike the "weak bones" off the negative effects since it can be much better treated today. But you also have to strike off "status", "fame" AND "a decent living" since it no longer guarantees you any of that, and certainly won't bring about those on its own.

---

(February 4, 2013 at 2:35 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: Coincidentely, The catholic church child abuse scandle surfaced in southern Germany some years ago because a boy was so violently abused by a priest that his testicles had to be amputated when he was 11.
The scandle came to public light when that person comitted suicide in his 40s due to the resulting depressions he had.

But this doesn't tell you anything about castrati and their happiness in life, all it tells you (if it's true that he was depressed because he didn't mature as a man should) is that not having the good things that castrati had AND being castrated equals misery.

(February 4, 2013 at 8:29 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: Violet, this isnt about genderoperations and the changing of a persons sexuality.



It´s about cutting of a minors balls and thereby destroying his potential future sexuality before he even has the chance to develope one.

^ This. As I said to Tara, I say also to Violet - I'm willing to discuss gender identity in the correct thread, it's off-topic in this thread AND there is one specifically on the topic you want to discuss already.

(February 5, 2013 at 2:32 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: I totally agree with you. I'm just saying, that for the most part, prepubescent boys aren't usually equipped to deal with a decision like that. Especially when it comes down to something as arbitrary as making sounds come out of his body, although believe me- I know how tough and beautiful it is. However it is not a decision relevant to his day and age, being that there isn't a call for that sort of art because the art form the OP highlighted is outdated, and would likely not bring the money that it used to. Add to that, castration is rarely a solution for physical health any longer.

I agree with you; some kids are capable of deciding for themselves, but largely, IMO, the castration of prepubescent boys is unethical. Preteens and teens aren't exactly known for making the best decisions.

It's not outdated. It's just impossible in this era. There is defintely a need for castrati in the early music field. We've replicated (to the best of our knowledge) every other aspect of historical performance: gut strings, old bows, early tunings, harpsichords, gambas, recorders, etc. but castrati are out of reach.

To everyone:

What needs to be addressed is what sort choices exactly should children be allowed to make? We let them make lots of choices already.

What needs to be answered:
1. Why is a complete understanding of what is at stake something that should be required when making a choice? Like I said, we already let kids choose interests and activities that could significantly affect them either postively or negatively into adult hood. Kids don't fully understand that but we do. Try to avoid special pleading in answering this.

2. What is it exactly that makes the loss of sexual reproduction so different from other negative consequences that could result from a choice? Try to avoid special pleading.

3. Would the loss of sexual reproduction necessarily even be regretted in adulthood by the person? Perhaps to that person, the singing career would've been worth it.

(February 5, 2013 at 12:59 am)Shell B Wrote: The thing is, you can be positively involved with your child's life and help them get through to making the choice in adulthood. Given that I have not and will not beat children, I'm looking at it from a different perspective. Always assume I mean supportive parents, as that is what we should all be.

Survival and happiness as choices, the former to be struggled with until the mystical line, the latter to not be found until well past it! That's positive alright... usually it's called gatekeeping

So you don't beat children... I didn't say you did, I gave my experience which was this: Nothing my parents did to me got to me, because I had simply ceased to care. When your child has that level of apathy: there is nothing you can do to 'redirect them', the only thing punishment becomes capable of doing is setting their willingness to survive to adulthood even lower. And if you try a standard reward, they'll take it and simply continue being apathetic... it's not what they need (though I'm sure they'd prefer it to being punished).

My parents were supportive in many ways. It's the ways in which they weren't supportive that made life at home emotionally miserable and a place of self-esteem drainage.

Wait, TEGH, a singing career is not guaranteed. Believe me, I know. Your argument assumes it is, though.