The scriptures weren't even written by the "Creator", that is something that I admire about Islam and other beliefs.

(February 6, 2013 at 5:51 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I would never disallow evidence, let alone 'proof', that purports to support a claim. Give me something I can sink my teeth into and I'll chew it over.

This is what I can't get over, around or through. I can't provide you anything, Because I did not make the orginal claim. I can only tell you how to get the proof God promised all who want it.

Quote:The most I've ever seen dished up are the usual warmed-over apologetic table scraps and unsatisfying platitudinous gristle. They may be carefully presented with touches of garnish here and there, but ultimately their nourishment value is deeply lacking.

Why? Because The Whole of Christianity Can not Produce what God has promised. It is upto God to provide proof.

Quote:Let's try an analogy. You stand in court accused of some sundry crime. The prosecution builds its case on claims that you did the deed, but the jury is expected to believe that the claims are evidence enough to convict you. At best the case hinges on promises of third party testimony which is never presented, from a single witness who is never identified and never appears to testify. Based on your words above, and considering that potentially many years of your life are at stake, would this be a fair trial?

As stated no. But who to say your view of the pending trial is accurate? that what this whole discussion amounts to. It's all about perception an one's right to perspective. Not to take anything away from what you have surrounded yourself with, but there is no trial. (Even on the day of Judgement there is no trial.) Nothing is being weighed nor is there anything being established. It really simple God has provided a path for us to follow if we want to verify what He has told us. If we want said verfication we will do as instructed, if not (for whatever reason) we will not. there is no debate or weighing of facts or closing statements. We will do as God instructed or we will not.

The only task set before any believer is to point to Promise God has made to all of us. We can not provide proof because we have been given nothing (more than our testamonies) to provide you with. Which Means quite literally that God is the only one who can provide proof that He is God. If you think about it, if anyone else could, then God would not be God... For He has told us He hides Himself to all but those who earnestly seek Him.

Quote:Exactly. If it were something tangible, such as car keys, to carry on looking for them after you find them would indeed be pointless.

It's been my personal experience that God is indeed tangable. That is why I stopped looking for myself and have given myself to help others find Him.

Quote:Yet "God" is the ultimate investigation-killer, the ultimate non-answer.

Only For those who do not know God.

Quote: "God" is sold as the explanation for everything from the Origins of Everything to the whims of the weather. Why did an earthquake destroy such-and-such city and kill thousands of people? God. Where did flesh-eating bacteria come from? God. What makes water wet? God. Why did the chicken cross the road? God. Who put the ram in the rama-lama-ding-dong? Wait, wait, don't tell me; I know this one...

What about this one? Where did science come from? The Church, in that orginally it was purposed to investigate how it was God accomplished things in this world. But as it turned out, it simply created a devotion/worship for the method in which things of this world work, rather than the method maker.

Quote:Ever see that Simpsons episode with Lucy Lawless at a sci-fi convention, fielding audience questions about Xena? She was asked to explain certain plot holes and production errors in the series, to which she replied "It's really quite simple. Every time you see something like that, a wizard did it." For ten points, can you identify why that is an unsatisfying answer?

Because lucy did not create the series she only acted a part. Therefore she had no way of giving an answer that would fill the need for an answer. But at the same time lucy never claimed to create the show nor answer everyone's questions did she?

If you want a real answer then know only one being can provide that for you, also remember He will only do so if you humble yoourself and appproach Him as instructed.

Careful Drichy, your proselytism is showing. Please don't insult me like that.

As for the rest, I don't feel confident enough in myself to respond as coherently as I'd like, so I need to take a break for a while and get back when I'm feeling more stable. Consider this a pause, not an evasion. Others can pointy-stick you in my stead if they like.

(February 6, 2013 at 6:56 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Careful Drichy, your proselytism is showing. Please don't insult me like that.

As for the rest, I don't feel confident enough in myself to respond as coherently as I'd like, so I need to take a break for a while and get back when I'm feeling more stable. Consider this a pause, not an evasion. Others can pointy-stick you in my stead if they like.

Sure. Just PM me if you post something in the future, and I do not respond.

Drich, you'll receive a PM any minute now!

(February 6, 2013 at 11:12 am)Drich Wrote: The Claim was made long before i was born. (That God is)

Subsequently, God provides a way to verify this claim. My role in this is not to make a paralell claim. Mine is to to point to the avenue that was left and tell you it is a viable path. So IF you want 'proof' take God up on His offer/promise.

In order to find proof enough to believe in god, I have to believe in god?

(February 6, 2013 at 10:03 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(February 6, 2013 at 11:12 am)Drich Wrote: The Claim was made long before i was born. (That God is)

Subsequently, God provides a way to verify this claim. My role in this is not to make a paralell claim. Mine is to to point to the avenue that was left and tell you it is a viable path. So IF you want 'proof' take God up on His offer/promise.

In order to find proof enough to believe in god, I have to believe in god?

Not according to Christ. He said all one needs is the faith the size of a mustard seed, and God will move whatever is keeping you from belief if you simply Ask Him to.

In short you need just enough to start the ball rolling.

(February 7, 2013 at 1:06 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 6, 2013 at 10:03 pm)Esquilax Wrote: In order to find proof enough to believe in god, I have to believe in god?

Not according to Christ. He said all one needs is the faith the size of a mustard seed, and God will move whatever is keeping you from belief if you simply Ask Him to.

In short you need just enough to start the ball rolling.

You just answered Esquilax's question with both a No and a Yes.

The problem with your ridiculous 'seek and ye shall find' method of finding proof is of course, that many atheists were former christians who found nothing but blow hards like you. Your worn out cliche of a response is always the same: "You weren't really a true christian ... you weren't looking hard enough ... you didn't really believe." It's packaged-up theological fucktardery. You spin your words in circles in an effort to produce proof that is nothing more than the fuzzy feelings of a gullible half-wit.

(February 7, 2013 at 1:06 am)Drich Wrote: Not according to Christ. He said all one needs is the faith the size of a mustard seed, and God will move whatever is keeping you from belief if you simply Ask Him to.

In short you need just enough to start the ball rolling.

But why would I ever make that leap? Because faith isn't some neutral thing, one doesn't just have a store of spare faith that gets assigned as needed: you have faith in things. Why would I ever play into this case of special pleading by allowing myself faith in your god, when I don't prize faith as a virtuous thing. Faith is just tarted up intellectual laziness.

(February 7, 2013 at 3:35 am)Cinjin Wrote: You just answered Esquilax's question with both a No and a Yes.

No I did not. for Faith and belief are not the same thing. Faith is akin to unsubstanciated trust. Belief is based on knoweledge that is founded in experience and or evidence, of what one believes.

It takes the smallest amount of unsubstanciated trust, to be given whatever you personally need to establish and maintain not only belief, but an actual interactive relationship.

Quote:The problem with your ridiculous 'seek and ye shall find' method of finding proof is of course, that many atheists were former christians who found nothing but blow hards like you. Your worn out cliche of a response is always the same: "You weren't really a true christian ... you weren't looking hard enough ... you didn't really believe." It's packaged-up theological fucktardery. You spin your words in circles in an effort to produce proof that is nothing more than the fuzzy feelings of a gullible half-wit.

Sincerity has never once entered into a response when someone asks "why did I not find, when I asked."
My only response to that question is to inturn ask: Did you do it God's way? or did you do it your way?

Ultimatly if you did not do it God's way (as outlined by Luke 11) Why would you assume that you would find anything? God rewards the humble, and punishes the proud. If you can not humble yourself to do things God's way, then why would He reward you with what you seek?

If you tell you boy to clean his room before he does "X" with his friends, do you let him do "X" if he 'cleans' to his standard by shoving everything under the bed? Or do you make him do things your way?

If you know how to be a good parent and make him do things your way, and not allow your son to establish a reward system based on cutting corners and or misrepersenting himself ,or the things that he has done. Then How much more is God to hold you to the things He has established and proclaimed that we do?

If God allows you to half ass your way into belief, then doesn't it stand to reason that you will half ass your way into everything else concerning him? God's standards are absolute and unchanging, and we still get 'luke warm' believers. If God just let us do our own thing then it would be next to impossiable for any of us to establish the quality of relationship He is looking for and offering. Dooming all of us to Hell.

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(February 7, 2013 at 9:06 am)Esquilax Wrote: But why would I ever make that leap?

Because we want to know God.

Quote:Because faith isn't some neutral thing, one doesn't just have a store of spare faith that gets assigned as needed: you have faith in things. Why would I ever play into this case of special pleading by allowing myself faith in your god, when I don't prize faith as a virtuous thing. Faith is just tarted up intellectual laziness.

says who?? Your peers? Those who taught you how to think?? The 'great minds' you look up to?? Do you see the irony yet???