I notice you didn't answer my question misluckie. What is this religion you were freed from? Which denomination?

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Even to this day, this being the time of the NT, the Jews deny god's one and only. They're going to hell in your opinion yes? So why bother using them as a reference for your belief in the Bible? That's all I'm saying.

So you're not disagreeing that what you conclude is highly suspect if it contradicts what the authors themselves concluded?

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: your statement that everyone "has to be made happier" is innately false

The perversion you describe has nothing to do with any faith that I subscribe to. You're saying that positivity doesn't work in one breath, and then arguing it does in the next. The difference = the way you label it. You need to find some consistency, then you'd start making sense.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Also, since you correlated the two: How is my perfection or non-perfection relevant to my happiness?

It's how you're built. Your failings make you unhappy, as mine do me.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: No one's perfect, not even god, apparently. He's subject to the same emotions as humanity. Case in point: pride, jealousy, anger, oh and bitterness too. Just to name a few. Even Jesus got angry and took a barbed whip to the moneylenders at the temple.

Again, this is not Christianity. Anger isn't a sin. Ever heard of this one: "In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry" (Eph 4:26)
God is perfect. Perfect is God. It's the definition. You can bastardise that all you want, it doesn't alter the fact of the definition. There is no proof to the contrary.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: My happiness is not provisional to believing in him. It's within me and me alone.

What is within you is from God. In him you will find perfect happiness. Think of that in secular terms, and you're saying exactly the same thing. You're hung up on what is to you a taboo langueage. Get over it.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: I see you as limiting your scope on the subject, as I did.

Yes, you're projecting that hell you went through onto me. I've said already that it bears no reference to me or my belief at all. It is pure perversion.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote:

Quote:

(February 6, 2013 at 9:28 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Even when I was a Christian, I just had to deal with the fact that athiests
were going to be happy and I wasn't, plain and simple.

Wow. lol

Seriously Cluckie, I don't recognise this. I don't want to call this non christian, but I see no evidence for the affirmative. If you feel comfortable with it perhaps you could tell us what exactly it was?

Whose mocking who, on this the King's Highway just past Wicker's Gate, dear Christian?

I'm not mocking you. I'm asking you to exlpain this gross misrepresentation, and for some reason you don't want to answer.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: You don't feel jealousy that they get to live life in their limited little box as you call it, accountable to nobody and nothing for their actions whether they're good or bad? Really?

I never mentioned any box, you did. You're projecting.

An atheist wouldn't appreciate what they're missing, otherwise no one would have to explain it. You can't say that imperfection = perfection, as that would be illogical. So one has to be greater than the other. that's a simple fact. Is that attainable for you not accepting the possiblity? No.

I quite agree that the batcrazy experience you relate would be worse than both of those. But who's talking about that being in any way right? Oh yeah that would be you!?

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Taking nutjob comment and throwing it in the bin* on grounds of hypocrisy.

lol
Methinks you have no idea what you're talking about.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: I thought Christianity was the enacting force of guilt

You thought wrong

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Also, almost every christian I know believes in ghosts. Most of them think they're demons though. I guess they're not christians because they don't believe in what you a self-proclaimed 'true christian' believe? How do you know they're wrong?

Because that goes against biblical teaching? That's how they'd know I was wrong too.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Am I not fortunate, blessed, of advantage, getting a break, prosperous, favored, providential for being here despite the infinite odds against my survival?

Sing it sister

(February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Certainly you can't say that an athiest would believe in such nonsense as luck

Quite. Yet you have it as your username. Ironic.

---

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. That's just wishful thinking.

And what does believing it do? To you it's wishful thinking, to me it's reality.

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: your desires in the matter are not evidence one way or the other as to whether there is ultimate justice or not.

Of course not.

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: So until you either demonstrate the actual existence

And do you realise how fallacious that request is?

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: The fact that people interpret reality in terms of fairness has deep roots in our nature as a social species

A God given ability, to state the taboo

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: you need to demonstrate that your god hypothesis explains the facts themselves, not simply that god "could" explain it, that god "seems like a plausible explanation," or even that there doesn't appear to be any other explanation.

God does explain it. That is his purpose, from our perspective. Call it anything you like, there are other ways of describing it. I remain open minded to finding another answer that is so complete.

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: So, without assuming the existence of God:

The assumption has to be yours. The belief is mine. Address theology and you'll address the subject.

(February 10, 2013 at 4:44 am)fr0d0 Wrote: If you ever found a cause Ryan I'm sure you'd make a cute rebel.

I bet you tell that to all the boys.

Quote:The difference between the Abrahamic God and the rest is that he doesn't demand anything, just like in your perfect scenario. So thank you from him for that promo.

He demands total and complete devotion. Sure, in the NT he asks rather than demands, much like I imagine a rapist might ask a woman to disrobe while pointing a gun at her face.

Quote:If you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed me say that good and bad are their own rewards. Just like you can see nature as evidence of God, or not, depending on your POV, so you can get PUNISHED (there, I made that scary for you) for doing bad stuff, by yourself in the form of guilt. What is so bad about justice any way? Do you have a problem with fairness? I'd be interested to hear your world view where injustice is desirable. Seems crazy to me right now.

I believe in justice, I do not believe that your god is just. I do not think any human crime, no matter how heinous, deserves an extended stay in hell. I do not believe in disproportionate retribution. I do not believe that vengeance is the same thing as justice, and your god is certainly vengeful. Punishing four generations because of their great-grandfather's misdeeds is not justice, and I do not hold the conceit that an action is just because God says it is. I am a sapient being, and I will never accept "I am more powerful than you" as justification for anything. Being more powerful than I am may make me unable to resist, but it can never force me to recognize your actions as justified.

To put it simply, I do not believe injustice is desirable, and that is the primary reason I find your god so repulsive. Your god is a vicious, capricious despot in scripture and (assuming he exists) negligent and absent in real life. There is nothing fair about him, nothing righteous, nothing deserving of glory or praise. If we were designed by God, we act only in ways he made us able to act. If he creates laws he knows we cannot follow, offering salvation is a completely meaningless gesture. We're not being saved from sin, we're being saved from his design fuckup. What kind of horse shit justice is that?

(February 10, 2013 at 7:22 am)Ryantology Wrote: I believe in justice

Good stuff. We agree then.

(February 10, 2013 at 7:22 am)Ryantology Wrote: I believe in justice

How can we say we have a justice (system) when innocent people are pretty much forced to plead guilty or no contest to a crime they did not commit? You don't think about a situation like that much until it's knocking on your back door. It happens everyday. That's why there should have to be definitive evidence and not just circumstantial. Things aren't always what they appear to be and without knowing someone there is no way possible to be able to make the right call. Therefore we have innocent people out a whole lot of money and a record when they have done nothing wrong. Never done anything criminal in their life. How do we call this justice?

Justice lives in our mind man it aint real!

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. That's just wishful thinking.

And what does believing it do? To you it's wishful thinking, to me it's reality.

Believing something to be true because you have evidence for it being true is one thing, believing something to be true solely because you want it to be true is another. The latter is wishful thinking. Thus the call for your evidence.

In the absence of your producing any evidence, you leave me no choice but to conclude that it is wishful thinking.

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: your desires in the matter are not evidence one way or the other as to whether there is ultimate justice or not.

Of course not.

Glad to hear it.

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: So until you either demonstrate the actual existence

And do you realise how fallacious that request is?

Merriam-Webster gives two definitions for the word fallacious. The first, to embody a fallacy. The second, tending to mislead or deceive. Since you obviously mean the latter, I'd have to ask in what way it was either misleading or deceptive. Demonstrating the existence of your god — which was only one of two alternatives suggested — would certainly put tits on the bull. If accusing me of deception and being misleading is your way of shifting the blame for the inadequacy of your evidence or your argument, then I suggest you fuck off. That you have beliefs you can't adequately support is not my problem, and your implying that I'm being unethical by simply revealing that fact is thoroughly loathsome on your part.

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: The fact that people interpret reality in terms of fairness has deep roots in our nature as a social species

A God given ability, to state the taboo

There's a taboo on God given abilities? That's news to me. I presume you're attempting to imply the argument that our felt need for fairness is explained by the fact that our moral nature has been given to us by god. Since there are two equally viable explanations on the table, simply assuming that your explanation is the correct one without evidence amounts to bare assertion, and that's a fallacy of the former kind, and makes your conclusion a non sequitur (that means your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises, and therefore should neither be believed nor disbelieved).

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: you need to demonstrate that your god hypothesis explains the facts themselves, not simply that god "could" explain it, that god "seems like a plausible explanation," or even that there doesn't appear to be any other explanation.

God does explain it. That is his purpose, from our perspective. Call it anything you like, there are other ways of describing it. I remain open minded to finding another answer that is so complete.

Since there are (at least) two explanations which equally completely explain the phenomenon, the fact that God does, or more properly, God "would" explain it is not evidence that God is in fact the explanation. That you find the God explanation so compelling is irrelevant. That you prefer the God explanation to all other explanations without specific reasons for discounting those other explanations amounts to special pleading and is yet another fallacy. (And feel free to explain what would make an alternative theory less complete; explanations are either true or false. Different explanations may have greater or lesser explanatory power and/or scope, and greater power or scope are desirable, but neither trait by itself tells us about the likely truth or falsity of the explanation.) That you claim to be open to finding another explanation is betrayed by your obvious unwillingness to consider an alternative simply because it conflicts with what you believe. That's not "being open," that's being dogmatically closed-minded.

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote: So, without assuming the existence of God:

The assumption has to be yours. The belief is mine. Address theology and you'll address the subject.

Since the topic of the thread is free will, which neither needs nor requires any theological assumptions, if you want to bring theology into it, the burden is yours to demonstrate that theology has as much right to sit at the table as naturalistic assumptions. If you're suggesting I am obligated to assume theology, without evidence, before I myself have any right to sit at the table, then you can shove it up your ass.

And again, that you believe something to be true is of little consequence if you don't have sound reasons for believing what you do. Your entire response has been little more than the childish, "I believe it, therefore it's true for me." Who the fuck cares what you believe if you can't produce any compelling reasons for what you believe. We might as well talk about what our favorite color or flavor of ice cream is if you're going to retreat to claiming that your mere preference for believing something to be true is good enough to go unquestioned. And this gets back to your earlier agreement that your desires in the matter are not evidence one way or the other. (You said, "Of course not.") Apparently, you're only willing to pay lip service to that principle when it's convenient, as the rest of your response makes it clear you refuse to apply this maxim to your theological beliefs and assumptions.

I was not a JH or a Mormon. I grew up bouncing cities, states, and Christian churches. I've been to methodists, baptists, lutherans, southern baptists, catholics (once), but for the most part my parents stuck with christian churches without such titles, based on the level of spirituality that the pastor had. That said, my parents did end up at some extreme churches when I was young that made them conclude not to stick to a particular denomination for good reason; one church ending in suicide after they left, another they left because the pastor boasted and propagated child molestation. We even went to Ted Haggards' church when he was hatin on the gays. From those experiences my father kept with him the extreme view on the bible, and to this day believes women should not own land or hold office and are the reason the country is going to hell in a hand basket along with the fact that gays, muslims, and removal of religion are also contributing to the the world going to hell. He absolutely cannot contain his excitement for the End of Times.
My mother on the other hand takes care of the purest innocent of humans on this planet for nothing in return, she's even too tired in her good works to go to church anymore.

Quote:The perversion you describe has nothing to do with any faith that I subscribe to.

Honestly Fr0d0, it's getting kind of annoying this whole, "You speak not of my religion BS."

Quote:What is within you is from God

I disagree.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/scienc...d=all&_r=0

Quote:Again, this is not Christianity. Anger isn't a sin. Ever heard of this one: "In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry" (Eph 4:26)
God is perfect. Perfect is God. It's the definition. You can bastardise that all you want, it doesn't alter the fact of the definition. There is no proof to the contrary.

It says in your anger don't sin. Not, if you're angry you're not sinning.
Where in the Bible does it say god is perfect? Just curious. Or in a dictionary under perfection, where there is god = perfection?

There's a lil proof in his own actions methinks. Here's something just from what I was watching tonight as you got me all on a Jew roll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...x7irFN2gdI


Here are verses that I see as directly contrasting gods' actions that are described by this one issue alone.

“I the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6a)

“You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell” (Psalm 5:4).

“When you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe” (1 Thessalonians 2:13b).

Quote:You can't say that imperfection = perfection, as that would be illogical.

missluckie26 Wrote: Taking nutjob comment and throwing it in the bin* on grounds of hypocrisy.

Can't you see that I see you as being hypocritical and illogical yourself? That god cannot be perfect if he commits imperfect acts and is a hypocrite for judging us to hell for qualities he himself has shown? Before you say the typical, who are you to judge god BS please take a minute to consider that I am not indeed here to slam your beliefs. I'm here to talk to you about your beliefs. I'm not here talking to you to debate you and have fun with the word war you're ensuing. I dislike it highly, actually. I'm literally here to find out what is keeping you faithful and why, and all you can do is tell me I'm perverse and bastardising your bible.

Quote: You're saying that positivity doesn't work in one breath, and then arguing it does in the next

Be a darling and point your position out for me please, in detail?
Also, please translate for me this statement: You're hung up on what is to you a taboo langueage. Get over it.

Quote:I never mentioned any box, you did. You're projecting.

My bad I was quoting you from some of your past quotes. I like to see what the beliefs of someone I'm talking to are, and you have oh 450 some odd pages to thumb through (plus I just like reading the old debates!). Figured you'd recognize your own arguments. Here's one, of many..

Quote:http://atheistforums.org/thread-832-page-4.html
Kyuuketsuki Wrote: A lot of what world? The warped one you exist in or the one that I, as most science adherents, choose to believe (with reason) is inherently explainable and governed by physical laws that make sense? Thanks but no thanks ... I think I'll continue to inhabit the world of the rational.

Fr0d0 wrote:
It's nice and safe in that little box. Come back and see me when you're ready to come out and play in the real world.

Lets take my example of one of my "hells" of a bastardized perversion of your own beliefs that I'm projecting onto you, and if you can please explain to me how I am perverting your beliefs feel free to educate me. Seriously.

My mom and dad got married. Both believed in god. Both swore to god on this statement (yes I'm aware it's not from the bible).

I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part.), these can also be altered in many ways, or you can write your own vows

They meant it.

Let's assume my father perverted the bible because of his mental illness, then eventually loses his faith 20yrs later. There are still bible verses she must adhere to during those 20yrs in her love of god and love of her husband, and these few verses are what used as reasoning that prevented her from ending that "hell". Verses from a book that God claims is his will breathed to "living word".

1 Corinthians 7:39 ESV
A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Mark 10:12 ESV
And if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Malachi 2:14-16 God states "The Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously... 'For I hate divorce' says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'and him who covers his garment is wrong.'

1 Corinthians 7:15 ESV
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

Quote:Fr0d0 said:
Wow. lol

Seriously Cluckie, I don't recognise this.

then Fr0d0 said:
I'm not mocking you. I'm asking you to exlpain this gross misrepresentation

missluckie26 Wrote: Am I not fortunate, blessed, of advantage, getting a break, prosperous, favored, providential for being here despite the infinite odds against my survival?

Fr0d0 said:
Sing it sister

Nope, you're just mocking me there I'm pRetty sure, brother.

(February 10, 2013 at 7:57 am)fr0d0 Wrote: And what does believing it do? To you it's wishful thinking, to me it's reality.

...and there we have it.... abject nonsense.

It is laughably poor reasoning. Reality is absolute and objective, not relative and no different for you nor anyone else. If you deny that reality is absolute, you are left unable to make any claim including that of a claim to a god. Your claims that a god forms some part of the fabric of reality can be instantly dismissed without any support; evidential, logical or otherwise. If you provide nothing then we are left to conclude that you are merely asserting that god exists. Which is no different from believing in a cartoon god in a cartoon existence. Many theists have made many attempts at arguing to a god on evidential, logical and presuppositional grounds. You seem to provide none of these, and are left holding a dog shit position.

(February 10, 2013 at 7:57 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 7:22 am)Ryantology Wrote: I believe in justice

Good stuff. We agree then.

We definitely do not.

(February 10, 2013 at 8:01 am)Phish Wrote: How can we say we have a justice (system) when innocent people are pretty much forced to plead guilty or no contest to a crime they did not commit? You don't think about a situation like that much until it's knocking on your back door. It happens everyday. That's why there should have to be definitive evidence and not just circumstantial. Things aren't always what they appear to be and without knowing someone there is no way possible to be able to make the right call. Therefore we have innocent people out a whole lot of money and a record when they have done nothing wrong. Never done anything criminal in their life. How do we call this justice?

Justice lives in our mind man it aint real!

I make no claims that our justice system is perfect, ideal, or without flaws. There is a ton of room for improvement. There is clear abuse even in the most progressive justice systems. I agree with you almost all the way.

A flawed human invention though it is, justice is a real thing. It is one of the necessary ropes which make civilization and society possible. It is not handed down by any god or gods, it is constructed through human experience. There is no such thing as objective or perfect justice.

Still, even with the flaws it has, I think I'd not rather no justice system at all and be completely at the mercy of everyone around me.

So sorry I'm late back onto this thread. I have no idea why I missed it. Maybe I was living or something. Who knows. Credit to missluckie26 anyway for pointing my mistake out.

(February 10, 2013 at 8:27 am)apophenia Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: And what does believing it do? To you it's wishful thinking, to me it's reality.

Believing something to be true because you have evidence for it being true is one thing, believing something to be true solely because you want it to be true is another. The latter is wishful thinking. Thus the call for your evidence.

In the absence of your producing any evidence, you leave me no choice but to conclude that it is wishful thinking.

With such thorough investigative talent I should wonder at your enlightenment

(February 10, 2013 at 8:27 am)apophenia Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: And do you realise how fallacious that request is?

Merriam-Webster gives two definitions for the word fallacious. The first, to embody a fallacy. The second, tending to mislead or deceive. Since you obviously mean the latter, I'd have to ask in what way it was either misleading or deceptive. Demonstrating the existence of your god — which was only one of two alternatives suggested — would certainly put tits on the bull. If accusing me of deception and being misleading is your way of shifting the blame for the inadequacy of your evidence or your argument, then I suggest you fuck off. That you have beliefs you can't adequately support is not my problem, and your implying that I'm being unethical by simply revealing that fact is thoroughly loathsome on your part.

Wrong choice

(February 10, 2013 at 8:27 am)apophenia Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: A God given ability, to state the taboo

(that means your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises, and therefore should neither be believed nor disbelieved).

Always.

But the point follows the reasoning.

(February 10, 2013 at 8:27 am)apophenia Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: God does explain it. That is his purpose, from our perspective. Call it anything you like, there are other ways of describing it. I remain open minded to finding another answer that is so complete.

Since there are (at least) two explanations which equally completely explain the phenomenon...

False

There are not 2 equal explanations. Other explanations fall very short.

(February 10, 2013 at 8:27 am)apophenia Wrote:

(February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: The assumption has to be yours. The belief is mine. Address theology and you'll address the subject.

without evidence

Again, you haven't asked for it, or apparently want to hear it.

(February 10, 2013 at 8:27 am)apophenia Wrote: And again, that you believe something to be true is of little consequence if you don't have sound reasons for believing what you do.

And I do.

---

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote: I was not a JH or a Mormon. I grew up bouncing cities, states, and Christian churches. I've been to methodists, baptists, lutherans, southern baptists, catholics (once), but for the most part my parents stuck with christian churches without such titles, based on the level of spirituality that the pastor had. That said, my parents did end up at some extreme churches when I was young that made them conclude not to stick to a particular denomination for good reason; one church ending in suicide after they left, another they left because the pastor boasted and propagated child molestation. We even went to Ted Haggards' church when he was hatin on the gays. From those experiences my father kept with him the extreme view on the bible, and to this day believes women should not own land or hold office and are the reason the country is going to hell in a hand basket along with the fact that gays, muslims, and removal of religion are also contributing to the the world going to hell. He absolutely cannot contain his excitement for the End of Times.
My mother on the other hand takes care of the purest innocent of humans on this planet for nothing in return, she's even too tired in her good works to go to church anymore.

Thanks. Interesting.

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote:

Quote:The perversion you describe has nothing to do with any faith that I subscribe to.

Honestly Fr0d0, it's getting kind of annoying this whole, "You speak not of my religion BS."

Honestly... I think your family, as you describe them, are less Christian than any of the atheists I've met here. These people are shining examples of virtue in comparison. Most of them also have a better understanding of the bible. And that's those that have never experienced it.

You might not like it, but it's demonstrably true.

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote:

Quote:What is within you is from God

I disagree.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/scienc...d=all&_r=0

Yeah that's secular morality. Proof of the God given bit.

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote:

Quote:Again, this is not Christianity. Anger isn't a sin. Ever heard of this one: "In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry" (Eph 4:26)
God is perfect. Perfect is God. It's the definition. You can bastardise that all you want, it doesn't alter the fact of the definition. There is no proof to the contrary.

It says in your anger don't sin. Not, if you're angry you're not sinning.

Basic 101. Jesus, in his anger, turned over the tables in anger. Anger isn't bad. Holding a grudge is bad.

"In your anger don't sin" ... in your innocent act (anger), don't sin (let that anger lead to what is bad - holding a grudge).

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Where in the Bible does it say god is perfect? Just curious. Or in a dictionary under perfection, where there is god = perfection?

From a quick google:

Deuteronomy 32:4 The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Psalm 18:30 This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Here are verses that I see as directly contrasting gods' actions that are described by this one issue alone.

“I the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6a)

“You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell” (Psalm 5:4).

“When you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe” (1 Thessalonians 2:13b).

I'm sorry those seem to support what I'm saying

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Can't you see that I see you as being hypocritical and illogical yourself? That god cannot be perfect if he commits imperfect acts and is a hypocrite for judging us to hell for qualities he himself has shown? Before you say the typical, who are you to judge god BS please take a minute to consider that I am not indeed here to slam your beliefs. I'm here to talk to you about your beliefs. I'm not here talking to you to debate you and have fun with the word war you're ensuing. I dislike it highly, actually. I'm literally here to find out what is keeping you faithful and why, and all you can do is tell me I'm perverse and bastardising your bible.

I see no argument from you. Just the empty and groundless accusations reapeated without support. I've discussed this many times with atheists over a few years now, and none come up with any rational objection.
God does not commit imperfect acts
God does not show imperfection

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote:

Quote:You're saying that positivity doesn't work in one breath, and then arguing it does in the next

Be a darling and point your position out for me please, in detail?
Also, please translate for me this statement: You're hung up on what is to you a taboo langueage. Get over it.

Taboo language: if I use religious dogma/ express it in the words of religion or theology, you throw the toys out of the pram. If we talk in non theological terms you will say the opposite, because you're hung up on the religious language.

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote:

Quote:I never mentioned any box, you did. You're projecting.

My bad I was quoting you from some of your past quotes. I like to see what the beliefs of someone I'm talking to are, and you have oh 450 some odd pages to thumb through (plus I just like reading the old debates!). Figured you'd recognize your own arguments. Here's one, of many..

Quote:http://atheistforums.org/thread-832-page-4.html
Kyuuketsuki Wrote: A lot of what world? The warped one you exist in or the one that I, as most science adherents, choose to believe (with reason) is inherently explainable and governed by physical laws that make sense? Thanks but no thanks ... I think I'll continue to inhabit the world of the rational.

Fr0d0 wrote:
It's nice and safe in that little box. Come back and see me when you're ready to come out and play in the real world.

Please use the quote function. I can then click back to your post and read the context.

Kyu is a materialist. He sees the world as only explainable by science. Almost violently so. that is what I referred to as his "box". It's a limitation and not an open minded perception of the world. Wilfully ignorant. A position of deep, unjustifiable faith.

(February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Lets take my example of one of my "hells" of a bastardized perversion of your own beliefs that I'm projecting onto you, and if you can please explain to me how I am perverting your beliefs feel free to educate me. Seriously.

My mom and dad got married. Both believed in god. Both swore to god on this statement (yes I'm aware it's not from the bible).

I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part.), these can also be altered in many ways, or you can write your own vows

They meant it.

Let's assume my father perverted the bible because of his mental illness, then eventually loses his faith 20yrs later. There are still bible verses she must adhere to during those 20yrs in her love of god and love of her husband, and these few verses are what used as reasoning that prevented her from ending that "hell". Verses from a book that God claims is his will breathed to "living word".

1 Corinthians 7:39 ESV
A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Mark 10:12 ESV
And if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Malachi 2:14-16 God states "The Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously... 'For I hate divorce' says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'and him who covers his garment is wrong.'

1 Corinthians 7:15 ESV
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

So what is your problem with any of that?

(April 8, 2013 at 1:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So sorry I'm late back onto this thread. I have no idea why I missed it. Maybe I was living or something. Who knows. Credit to missluckie26 anyway for pointing my mistake out.

You lying sack of shit. I pointed out to you at great length that you had not replied a few days after my reply, at which point you made excuses for why you had not replied. Now you claim to have "missed it."

You know, I originally thought you might be a reasonable Christian, but experience has taught me that this is not the case. Disappointingly, you're just another Liar for God.