Quote:What are your thoughts on this,...During one of the APA conventions in the 1970's gay activist, Frank Kameny of the Gay Liberation Front, ran to the podium, grabbed the microphone and declared,.....
"'Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you."...would you agree or disagree with Frank Kameny that this 'internationally respected and peer-reviewed' group of professionals were 'waging a relentless war of extermination' against homosexuals?

My thought is that you are trying to take one example of a guy spitting hyperbole and citing it as proof that the APA was bullied into de-listing homosexuality as a disorder.

Scientists are constantly bullied by creationists and oil company interests to change their viewpoints, and the most they can ever claim is that they get one or two scientists in a thousand to do so. If Big Oil can't make more than 1% of climate scientists deny anthropogenic climate change, if the combined weight of humongous world religions can't make more than 1% of scientists to abandon the Big Bang theory, or the theory of evolution, why should anybody believe that this tiny, loose group (which, 40 years ago, had very small sociopolitical muscle) forced the entire American Psychiatric Association to make a substantial change to their list of disorders, against their will by being obnoxious at a handful of conferences?

(February 17, 2013 at 2:48 pm)A Theist Wrote: What are your thoughts on this,...During one of the APA conventions in the 1970's gay activist, Frank Kameny of the Gay Liberation Front, ran to the podium, grabbed the microphone and declared,.....
"'Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you."...would you agree or disagree with Frank Kameny that this 'internationally respected and peer-reviewed' group of professionals were 'waging a relentless war of extermination' against homosexuals?

What Ryan said.

Frankly, A Theist, I think you just don't understand how science, the medical profession and whole process of peer review works.

I'm perfectly willing to believe you that some group of hotheads were obnoxious and disruptive. That happens all the time with all kinds of social and political movements. I'm also willing to believe you that some individual psychiatrists at that conference felt a little intimidated at that moment.

...and...?

So, the individual attendees made a move to alter the most respected and peer-reviewed source on mental illness as a result of getting yelled at during one conference? Against their will and completely against their professional opinions, risking their very credibility in their medical profession? They seriously suggested changing how the science of psychology is handled over having mean things said about them?

OK, let's assume that happened. And what then? Their peers all over the country and the world just went along with it? Because of why again? Were psychiatrists all over the world just so scared of having gay people come up to them on the street and say mean things about them?

Seriously?

Gay mafia, dude. You need a gay mafia to make this work.

And wear a tin foil hat with a beanie propeller on top. That helps disrupt the gay surveillance satellites.

(February 17, 2013 at 3:41 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(February 17, 2013 at 2:48 pm)A Theist Wrote: What are your thoughts on this,...During one of the APA conventions in the 1970's gay activist, Frank Kameny of the Gay Liberation Front, ran to the podium, grabbed the microphone and declared,.....
"'Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you."...would you agree or disagree with Frank Kameny that this 'internationally respected and peer-reviewed' group of professionals were 'waging a relentless war of extermination' against homosexuals?

What Ryan said.

Frankly, A Theist, I think you just don't understand how science, the medical profession and whole process of peer review works.

I'm perfectly willing to believe you that some group of hotheads were obnoxious and disruptive. That happens all the time with all kinds of social and political movements. I'm also willing to believe you that some individual psychiatrists at that conference felt a little intimidated at that moment.

...and...?

So, the individual attendees made a move to alter the most respected and peer-reviewed source on mental illness as a result of getting yelled at during one conference? Against their will and completely against their professional opinions, risking their very credibility in their medical profession? They seriously suggested changing how the science of psychology is handled over having mean things said about them?

OK, let's assume that happened. And what then? Their peers all over the country and the world just went along with it? Because of why again? Were psychiatrists all over the world just so scared of having gay people come up to them on the street and say mean things about them?

Seriously?

Gay mafia, dude. You need a gay mafia to make this work.

And wear a tin foil hat with a beanie propeller on top. That helps disrupt the gay surveillance satellites.

There was a lot more to it than just gay activist groups disrupting the annual APA conventions...wealthy gays and their leftwing supporters threw a lot of money into political lobbying and into backing political candidates who were supportive to them. There was political pressure in play as well.

...and it wasn't just one guy. There were a lot of other activists who were there disrupting those meetings too and voicing the same things as Frank Kameny....but what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with Kameny when he said this about the "most respected and peer-reviewed source on mental illness"....

Quote:"'Psychiatry is the enemy incarnate. Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us. You may take this as a declaration of war against you."...would you agree or disagree with Frank Kameny that this 'internationally respected and peer-reviewed' group of professionals were 'waging a relentless war of extermination' against homosexuals?

(btw, I can't see the you tube video you posted. I have a Linux OS and somehow it's not letting me see it.)

Quote:There was a lot more to it than just gay activist groups disrupting the annual APA conventions...wealthy gays and their leftwing supporters threw a lot of money into political lobbying and into backing political candidates who were supportive to them. There was political pressure in play as well.

...and it wasn't just one guy. There were a lot of other activists who were there disrupting those meetings too and voicing the same things as Frank Kameny....but what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with Kameny when he said this about the "most respected and peer-reviewed source on mental illness"....

I don't agree with Kameny. I do not think there was anything as insidious as extermination of homosexuals in mind. It was just a conservative-minded organization codifying the ignorance and biases of its constituent members.

I'm curious to see the proof you have that the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was the direct result of 'bullying' and that APA members voted for this against their will. Or, is this just what you want to believe so you can continue to view homosexuality as a mental disorder?

Mr A theist.

Why do homosexuals not deserve the freedom to marry?

(February 18, 2013 at 7:56 am)Ryantology Wrote:

Quote:There was a lot more to it than just gay activist groups disrupting the annual APA conventions...wealthy gays and their leftwing supporters threw a lot of money into political lobbying and into backing political candidates who were supportive to them. There was political pressure in play as well.

...and it wasn't just one guy. There were a lot of other activists who were there disrupting those meetings too and voicing the same things as Frank Kameny....but what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with Kameny when he said this about the "most respected and peer-reviewed source on mental illness"....

I don't agree with Kameny. I do not think there was anything as insidious as extermination of homosexuals in mind. It was just a conservative-minded organization codifying the ignorance and biases of its constituent members.

Oh, I see...It's all about ideology....when the APA was mostly Conservative you disagreed with their assessment that homosexuality is a mental disorder...but since the APA is now mostly Liberal and doesn't recognize homosexuality as a mental disorder, that's what you agree with.

A Theist Wrote:There was a lot more to it than just gay activist groups disrupting the annual APA conventions...wealthy gays and their leftwing supporters threw a lot of money into political lobbying and into backing political candidates who were supportive to them. There was political pressure in play as well.

"Conspiracy".

The word you're looking for is "conspiracy". Just have the guts to say it.

You don't accept that the conclusion of science is legitimate, that there's an agenda being pushed by powerful organizations that professionals have been forced to follow. This is a conspiracy theory you're proposing.

The problem with your conspiracy theory is, as Ryan already tried to patiently explain to you, there are plenty of examples of real pressure groups and wealthy organizations that are trying to browbeat scientists into changing their conclusions, to no avail. Gas, oil and coal companies aren't happy with climate science right now. Religious groups with all their fanatics aren't pleased with biologists over evolution. The response is "facts are facts".

What your conspiracy theory needs is a gay mafia.

Quote:btw, I can't see the you tube video you posted

.
It was just a bit of humor about the "gay mafia" by Larry the Cable Guy. Do a YouTube search for "gay mafia" and "Larry the Cable Guy" and I'm sure it'll come up.

(February 18, 2013 at 8:19 am)A Theist Wrote: Oh, I see...It's all about ideology....when the APA was mostly Conservative you disagreed with their assessment that homosexuality is a mental disorder...but since the APA is now mostly Liberal and doesn't recognize homosexuality as a mental disorder, that's what you agree with.

Science is neither "liberal" nor "conservative". It's the study of what is. Either the findings are sound, based on solid research, or they are not. When they are not sound, science corrects itself by the process of peer review. That's what happened here.

(February 18, 2013 at 8:19 am)A Theist Wrote:

(February 18, 2013 at 7:56 am)Ryantology Wrote: I don't agree with Kameny. I do not think there was anything as insidious as extermination of homosexuals in mind. It was just a conservative-minded organization codifying the ignorance and biases of its constituent members.

Oh, I see...It's all about ideology....when the APA was mostly Conservative you disagreed with their assessment that homosexuality is a mental disorder...but since the APA is now mostly Liberal and doesn't recognize homosexuality as a mental disorder, that's what you agree with.

I feel the need to point out that the word he used was "conservative", which is different from "Conservative" (the political ideology).

In this case, the word "conservative" means "disposed to preserve existing conditions, and to limit change". That isn't the way science is supposed to be done. The entire point of science is to research and draw conclusions from that research...not onto hold to existing theories when they are demonstrated to be inaccurate.

Homosexuality was traditionally viewed as a mental disorder, largely (I imagine) due to pressure from religious organizations. When research was interpreted without such pressure and bias, it became apparent that being classified as a mental disorder was highly inaccurate.

what if nature deliberately creates homosexuality because it prevents certain species (e.g human, I mean 7 bill. individuals are a lot right?) from overpopulating?:o

I don't think that "nature" works that way. Usually, scarcity of resources takes care of overpopulation.