(February 26, 2013 at 12:30 pm)Drich Wrote: Ignorantadj) uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field
Dismissv) bar from attention or consideration

To Ignorantly Dismiss is to 'bar from attention' on the grounds of a lack of knoweledge.

In otherwords I was addressing the OP's embrace, of a his lack of knoweledge, on the subject being discussed. If he had considered what was being said rather than dismissing what he did not understand, he could have been in a position to come to the same conclusion I had to spell out for him.

I addressed your points but you chose to ignore my reasoned response.

Quote:Why ask a question when it is your intention to embrace your ignorance no matter what is said?

I didn't ask a question I made a statement.

What Drich said. While the Bible speaks of us sinning against one another, in the big picture, we only sin against god, as he created all. The Bible addresses this charge in Psalm 51:

4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.

(February 26, 2013 at 1:33 pm)John V Wrote: What Drich said. While the Bible speaks of us sinning against one another, in the big picture, we only sin against god, as he created all. The Bible addresses this charge in Psalm 51:

4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.

So if a woman is raped...let me get this right....god is the one who is wronged!
And you think this is an ok way to look at things do you? this seems reasonable to you?

an imaginary thing gets more empathy then the true victim.

Honestly the more I find out about the way theists think the more I think they are a different breed.

(February 26, 2013 at 1:43 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: So if a woman is raped...let me get this right....god is the one who is wronged!
And you think this is an ok way to look at things do you? this seems reasonable to you?

an imaginary thing gets more empathy then the true victim.

Honestly the more I find out about the way theists think the more I think they are a different breed.

Considering that to theists god isn't imaginary, you don't seem to have the slightest clue as to how we think.

(February 26, 2013 at 1:53 pm)John V Wrote: Considering that to theists god isn't imaginary, you don't seem to have the slightest clue as to how we think.

It seems to me that every believer has doubts, oh how they struggle with their doubts..... and yet faith overcomes.

I would assume this applies to you as much as anyone.

Admit it you have doubts don't you.

But there is Peggy Sue a wrong broken individual, who is somehow less wronged than the thing you cant see, feel touch or if it did exist was not hurt in any way other than in a "keep orf my lawn its my rules" kinda way.

You really can't see whats wrong here can you.

(February 26, 2013 at 2:07 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: It seems to me that every believer has doubts, oh how they struggle with their doubts..... and yet faith overcomes.

I would assume this applies to you as much as anyone.

Admit it you have doubts don't you.

Sure. I sometimes note myself that I don't see any mountains moving. That doesn't make god imaginary to me.

Quote:But there is Peggy Sue a wrong broken individual, who is somehow less wronged than the thing you cant see, feel touch or if it did exist was not hurt in any way other than in a "keep orf my lawn its my rules" kinda way.

Got anything besides this appeal to emotion?

(February 26, 2013 at 1:13 pm)cato123 Wrote:

(February 26, 2013 at 12:30 pm)Drich Wrote: Why ask a question when it is your intention to embrace your ignorance no matter what is said?

Drich,
I'm likely wasting my time with this, but will try to frame Downbeat's inquiry in a way you might understand.

Given:
1. Bill lopped off Ted's nut.
2. God exists and has a rule against assault.
3. Bill seeks forgiveness from the aggrieved.

God is aggrieved because his rule was broken. I concede that only god can grant forgiveness for his rule being broken, but this wasn't the grievance being addressed in the OP.

The OP was addressing Ted's grievance: missing nut. Only Ted has the power of forgiveness regarding this grievance.

Do you understand and agree?

I understand, the grievance that Ted would have against Bill. And I also conceed that Ted has the right to withhold forgivness (for all that it matters in Ted's world.) This however has no impact on the Sin itself, as God is the one who determines what Sin is. Therefore it is to God we must repent of the sin, and to Ted (in this case) that bill must try and make amends with.

DP is trying to make the case that the agreived has priority as he is the one lance armstrong-ing it because of the actions of Bill. Again trying to make amends to Ted should be on Bill's to do list, but it is not the determining factor of Ted's eternal salvation. Matter of fact the oppsite is true.

For if Ted Can not forgive Bill, then Ted's sins against God will not be forgiven either.

There is a really nice parable that sums all of this up if you want to hear it.

---

(February 26, 2013 at 1:43 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: So if a woman is raped...let me get this right....god is the one who is wronged!

In so far as Sin is concerned because it is the standard in which our deeds are measured against's God's expressed will. Yes.

Quote:And you think this is an ok way to look at things do you? this seems reasonable to you?

Yes, Why? Because God has a standard apart from the standard in which we use to govern our own interactions with each other.

We simply Give to God what belongs to God. Sin and forgiveness is God's deal, we have our own Crime and punishment standards we live by in order to be apart of soceity.

Quote:Honestly the more I find out about the way theists think the more I think they are a different breed.

That is the Idea.

(February 26, 2013 at 2:23 pm)John V Wrote:

(February 26, 2013 at 2:07 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: But there is Peggy Sue a wrong broken individual, who is somehow less wronged than the thing you cant see, feel touch or if it did exist was not hurt in any way other than in a "keep orf my lawn its my rules" kinda way.

Got anything besides this appeal to emotion?

Well lets just say that this religion is set up to be a bullies religion.

The wronged party can still feel bad and not forgive but a few indulgences some hail mary's or a prayer and they don't count.

The testicle chopping perp gets to play his harp on cloud 9 and sod the victim doing a Hitler impersonation.

Its why William the conqueror built so many nunneries he had been a bad boy and needed people to pray away the crimes of killing thousands and thousands of English peasants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

If Bill really feels remorse for what he did to Ted, he can take the time machine to the point right before the mutilation and stop himself. No God needed.

Amazingly, I do think Drich actually has a valid answer to this as far as Christianity is concerned. To the atheist it is unsatisfactory, but I think it makes sense if you believe an almighty being to be the arbiter of all things right and wrong.

(BTW, mono-testicular Ted sounds like the name of some incredibly disturbed child's imaginary friend.)

God should seek forgiveness for not intervening on Ted's behalf. He doesn't get to sit back, let bad things happen, and then act like he's the wronged party.