(March 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm)mo66 Wrote:

(March 10, 2013 at 2:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 17:59 is the main one with a direct response that seems illogical to me.

Then you have other responses with what seems to me to be red herrings: 21:5-6, 13:7, 10:20, 6:109-111.

17:59 is regarding the occasions when the Arab idol worshippers demanded miracles, the verse is alluding to the fact that God doesn't provide it whenever thet wish, but plenty of miracles were in given to them, but not at a time of their choosing.

They aren't red herrings lol the verses are saying that they are not in charge of choosing the time of the miracles. They will get it, but whenever God wants.

Ok so we will state that up to that time, the only reason God didn't provide them with what they wish (ie. being sent with miracles up to that point), is because people in the past rejected miracles?

So if that was the reason till then, why did God all of sudden send miracles after?

Red-herrings is when you avoid answering the question. The other verses just did that. They avoided answering the question or argument, and instead focused the topic another thing, as if it was addressing the argument. Politicians do it all the time to wiggle out of situations. But God is suppose to be above doing logical fallacies.

(March 10, 2013 at 2:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm)mo66 Wrote: 17:59 is regarding the occasions when the Arab idol worshippers demanded miracles, the verse is alluding to the fact that God doesn't provide it whenever thet wish, but plenty of miracles were in given to them, but not at a time of their choosing.

They aren't red herrings lol the verses are saying that they are not in charge of choosing the time of the miracles. They will get it, but whenever God wants.

Ok so we will state that up to that time, the only reason God didn't provide them with what they wish (ie. being sent with miracles up to that point), is because people in the past rejected miracles?

So if that was the reason till then, why did God all of sudden send miracles after?

Red-herrings is when you avoid answering the question. The other verses just did that. They avoided answering the question or argument, and instead focused the topic another thing, as if it was addressing the argument. Politicians do it all the time to wiggle out of situations. But God is suppose to be above doing logical fallacies.

It's not a debate. Nobody can argue with God. It is a series of statements meant to indicate the power that God has over them, that God is going to provide the miracles (which He did) at a time of His choosing. Human "logic" is vastly inferior to God's wisdom and knowledge. God's words have to be understood on His terms, not ours.

Why do muslims believe in the quran?

If the verses stated, "I haven't provided miracles now but I will later" - I would hardly have a problem with them. But even that, Moses showed the Pharaoh miracles right as soon as he asked for one.

Why delay miracles? If you going to provide proof, why not right away?

17:59 states the only reason why God didn't send miracles (up to that point per your understanding), is that ancients rejected them. Those before them rejected them. How does this reasoning make sense?

We will talk about the other verses after.

Yes, the ancients did reject it when they demanded it, so God out of His wisdom delayed the sending of miracles because perhaps He knew they would reject it (I don't know). I'm sure I could find out more about the verses if I looked into the explanations of the Qur'an by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Tabari etc. But I can't really be bothered today sorry

Most questions of "why" are unanswerable because I don't know Divine wisdom, I don't have Divine knowledge. Asking why God did such and such CAN be answered in some circumstances but not most if the time because this is a type of knowledge known to Him alone as it states in the Qur'an.

I'm only here to answer the questions, not to "convince" anyone of anything If you're not satisfied with any of my responses, there is nothing I can do.

I'm curious though, why do you have a quote by Imam Ali in your sig? Are affiliated with Islam
in any way?

(March 10, 2013 at 3:37 pm)mo66 Wrote: because perhaps He knew they would reject it (I don't know).

But that would be a different reason then what is stated. Also God knew Pharaoh would reject miracles but still sent him miracles.

Quote: I'm sure I could find out more about the verses if I looked into the explanations of the Qur'an by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Tabari etc. But I can't really be bothered today sorry

I read tafsirs regarding this issue. The way they explain it is that it was a mercy from God because God didn't want to punish them, and they bring a hadith to support this. Only thing is that is completely different reason then what is stated in verse 17:59. This tells me, no one was really satisfied with what 17:59 stated and came up with their own reasons.

Quote:Most questions of "why" are unanswerable because I don't know Divine wisdom, I don't have Divine knowledge. Asking why God did such and such CAN be answered in some circumstances but not most if the time because this is a type of knowledge known to Him alone as it states in the Qur'an.

But he could have explained why or better yet have sent miracles right away like he did in the past.

Quote:If you're not satisfied with any of my responses, there is nothing I can do.

Well maybe there is nothing you can do for me but I can help you see the problems with these verses.

Quote:I'm curious though, why do you have a quote by Imam Ali in your sig?

heh, I don't know why

Quote:Are affiliated with Islam
in any way?

ex-Muslim.

(March 10, 2013 at 3:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 10, 2013 at 3:37 pm)mo66 Wrote: because perhaps He knew they would reject it (I don't know).

But that would be a different reason then what is stated. Also God knew Pharaoh would reject miracles but still sent him miracles.

Quote: I'm sure I could find out more about the verses if I looked into the explanations of the Qur'an by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Tabari etc. But I can't really be bothered today sorry

I read tafsirs regarding this issue. The way they explain it is that it was a mercy from God because God didn't want to punish them, and they bring a hadith to support this. Only thing is that is completely different reason then what is stated in verse 17:59. This tells me, no one was really satisfied with what 17:59 stated and came up with their own reasons.

Quote:Most questions of "why" are unanswerable because I don't know Divine wisdom, I don't have Divine knowledge. Asking why God did such and such CAN be answered in some circumstances but not most if the time because this is a type of knowledge known to Him alone as it states in the Qur'an.

But he could have explained why or better yet have sent miracles right away like he did in the past.

Quote:If you're not satisfied with any of my responses, there is nothing I can do.

Well maybe there is nothing you can do for me but I can help you see the problems with these verses.

Quote:I'm curious though, why do you have a quote by Imam Ali in your sig?

heh, I don't know why

Quote:Are affiliated with Islam
in any way?

ex-Muslim.

Interesting. I expect difficult questions from you then, ex-Muslims usually are well-informed about Islam.

Heh, yeah expect difficult ones

Riddle me this Batman!

If those who desire heaven are promised heaven and those who desire the life of this world are promised nothing but hell in the next world, what happens to those who desire both heaven and the life of this world?

(March 10, 2013 at 9:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Riddle me this Batman!

If those who desire heaven are promised heaven and those who desire the life of this world are promised hell, what happens to those who desire both heaven and the life of this world?

Those who desire both this world and heaven will get it in general, as the Qur'an states (if they believe in God and His messengers etc.)However, every person has their own specific situation.