(March 24, 2013 at 1:16 am)jstrodel Wrote: Prove how it is morally wrong in formal logic.

Like this:

1. (self evident)
2. (self evident) if condition 1 then conclusion
===========
3. (conclusion)

If it is not already evident to you, then what good would providing a logical proof be to you? You would simply ignore it and claim that it is illogical, as you have done with everything placed before you.

(March 17, 2013 at 8:32 pm)jstrodel Wrote: Science does not disprove Christianity. There is no scientific evidence anywhere that even remotely comes close to challenging any of the central tenets of Christian doctrine. Some science challenges a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Science began as a mostly Christian enterprise, now it is partially secular. Many, many scientists believe in God. Many of the greatest scientists in history have believed in God.
All of the major universities started as Christian universities and still are Christian to a large degree. 55% of scientists believe in God.

http://biologos.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chr...in_science

About The BioLogos Foundation

Who We Are
BioLogos is a community of evangelical Christians committed to exploring and celebrating the compatibility of evolutionary creation and biblical faith, guided by the truth that “all things hold together in Christ.” [Colossians 1:17] We value gracious dialogue with those who hold other views, and our ever-expanding conversation includes academic and other professionals in the fields of biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics, business and medicine, but also theology, biblical studies, philosophy, history, literature, education and the arts. We count pastors, entrepreneurs, poets, teachers and students among our numbers, and welcome men and women from all walks of life to join in this project of cultural and spiritual reconciliation.

National Center for Science Education: Wrote:In the legal case Kitzmiller v. Dover, tried in 2005 in a Harrisburg, PA, Federal District Court, "intelligent design" was found to be a form of creationism, and therefore, unconstitutional to teach in American public schools.
http://ncseprojects.org/creationism/lega...er-v-dover

CBS News Wrote:A late 2006 poll by CBS showed that:

"Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. ... Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all."

Poll results:

Creationist view 55%

Theistic evolution 27%
God created humans in [their] present form. Humans evolved, [but] God guided the process."

Naturalistic Evolution 13%
Humans evolved [but] God did not guide [the] process.


Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all.

How many voters in 2004 presidential poll wanted Creationism instead of evolution taught in schools:
All Americans
37%

60 percent of Americans who call themselves Evangelical Christians, however, favor replacing evolution with creationism in schools altogether, as do 50 percent of those who attend religious services every week.

Religioustolerance.org Wrote:The creationist view seems to have received increasing support when compared to earlier polls. This might be partly because of the elderly who represent a gradually increasing part of the U.S. population. At the same time, support for naturalistic evolution has also increased. The nation may be becoming more polarized as belief in the compromise theistic evolution position -- that evolution happened , but under God's guidance -- has dropped. 1

By any measure, the United States remains a highly religious nation, compared to other developed countries. American adults tend to hold more conservative beliefs. For example, the percentage of adults who believe that "the Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word" is 5 times higher in the U.S. than in Britain. Church attendance is about 4 times higher in the U.S. than it is in Britain. 2 Similarly, according to one opinion poll, belief that "Human beings developed from earlier species of animals..." is much smaller in the United States (35%) than in other countries (as high as 82%).


2007: Gallup Poll

In the spring of 2007, following an all-candidates meeting of ten Republicans seeking the presidency, three denied a personal belief in evolution. This promoted the Gallup Organization to ask American adults between 2007-MAY-21-24: "Do you, personally, believe in evolution or not." This is one of the poorest polling questions that we have ever seen, because people generally hold one of three beliefs concerning origins:

Naturalistic evolution: Evolution happened according to purely natural forces and processes without any divine guidance.
Theistic evolution: Evolution happened and was/is guided by God.
Creationism: Species were created separately by God.
When a person is asked if they believe in evolution, they might interpret the question as belief in naturalistic evolution only. Alternately, they might consider it as asking whether one believes in either naturalistic or theistic evolution. Pollsters tend to like simple yes and no answers. Sometimes they do not handle questions well where there are three discrete positions.

In addition, some people regard evolution as covering only the development of life forms from the first one-celled animal to the present diversity of plants and animals. Others define the term more widely, and include the origins of the universe, the development of galaxies, stars, planetary systems, development of mountain ranges, continental drift, etc.

The results, for what they are worth are a statistical draw:

49% believe in "Evolution;"
48% do not;
2% have no opinion.
As expected, more highly educated adults believe in "evolution:"

74% of people with post-graduate degrees believe in "evolution," as do:
48% of college graduates
50% of adults with some college
41% of adults with high school or less.
More frequent attendance at religious services correlated with a lack of belief in "evolution:"

24% of those who attend weekly believe in evolution, as do:
52% of those who attend nearly weekly or monthly, and
71% of those who attend seldom or never.
As expected, political affiliation reflects a difference of opinion on origins:

Only 30% of Republicans believe in "evolution;" 68% do not.
61% of independents believe in "evolution;" 37% do not.
57% of Democrats believe in "evolution;" 40% do not.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_public.htm

I conclude that the majority is wrong, like usual. They majority is also uneducated, and religious. HuH. I'm uneducated, but all I did was actually look up the evidence. If people did that instead of listening to what their parents or their pastors or their friends heresay has to say on the matter, shit would be alot more real around here. I can't even fathom the kind of conscience someone has to have, to preach the bible as scientific truth.

(March 24, 2013 at 1:18 am)Mr Infidel Wrote:

(March 24, 2013 at 1:16 am)jstrodel Wrote: Prove how it is morally wrong in formal logic.

Like this:

1. (self evident)
2. (self evident) if condition 1 then conclusion
===========
3. (conclusion)

If it is not already evident to you, then what good would providing a logical proof be to you? You would simply ignore it and claim that it is illogical, as you have done with everything placed before you.

In formal epistemological terms, do you think statements like "Religious people are brainwashed idiots who believe in the tooth fairy" meet the evidential standard of being self evident?

Is that what you are saying? Because if something is self evident, that means that it does not require any evidence to justify it. If you think the above statement is self evident, you are not capable of using logic.

^^ eyes one post up

missluckie I am not sure exactly what is your point. Are you saying that religious people who don't accept evolution are ignorant?

I'm saying that Americans are ignorant, that creationists are even more ignorant, and that intelligent design is creationism per those who are informed and thus the 55% statistic you put forth is null and void since the majority of them are creationists. Your very first post in this forum uses this statistic as a misinformation use to purposefully sway the OP towards your side being the correct one. At the very least, find the statistics and let him make his own conclusions, what you're doing is the main reason why 2/3 of Americans are retards right now.

Do you think that people will accept evolutionary theory in its exact present form in 1000 years with zero modifications? Can you name any theories from 1000 years ago that are understood exactly the same way with zero modifications?

I am unsure if evolution is the best way to understand life because it is an incomplete theory, it rests on unproven elements (abiogenesis) and the nature of science is that science tends to overturn itself fairly regularly.

I don't see what is retarded about this. It is just a value system. What makes trusting in science more rational than trusting in other sources of authority?

(March 24, 2013 at 2:01 am)missluckie26 Wrote: I'm saying that Americans are ignorant

Easy, now.

*the Majority of Americans are ignorant, excluding yourself of course

When you say "ignorant" do you mean "ignorant of controversial issues in science?" Why do you reduce knowledge to learning about science? Surely there are other things that people could be informed about, love, relationships, politics, courage, the business world, the arts. What is significant about science that makes science the defining characteristic of knowledge?