(March 26, 2013 at 9:42 pm)Godschild Wrote: People can only commit a certain number of sins before they die, however those sins are eternal unless they have been forgiven, thus eternal punishment (not torture) for eternal sins.

How can a finite action with finite consequences be eternal?

(March 26, 2013 at 8:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It's good to put in yourself in position of another, and ask what you think is the right thing to do with regards to yourself, and apply it to others.
If you were evil, would it be the right thing to have compassion yourself and hope you are forgiven and reformed or eternally tortured?
I believe it's the former.
Therefore I believe it's right to wish others compassion and they not be eternally tortured but forgiven and reformed.
Therefore I believe if there is a Creator that shares morality of humanity, it would be wrong of him to eternally torture humans for being evil.

I agree actually, and I am troubled by at least one of Jesus' statements. But I think the "If the Christian God is God, he's a bad God" argument is too simplistic.

A few points/ questions:
Jesus only condemned religious people to hell, at least publically, a warning to religious people everywhere including some "Christians."

Would Jesus be more or less forgiving than he sounds? We don't know. According to most atheists, Jesus forgives and saves an awful lot of bad people.

Further he plainly says that we are only judged as we judge. That in itself should jerk the slack out of any thinking person, if the threat of hell doesn't work. We are all basically self-righteous boneheads, spiritually speaking, and if we don't know that we deserve the bulk of what we get.

Finally, (according to the Christian God), we rejected his offer of paradise, ignored his commandments, killed his prophets and finally knocked off his son. And now we have some right to complain about the punishment?

That's fair and logical?

(March 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm)radorth Wrote: Finally, (according to the Christian God), we rejected his offer of paradise, ignored his commandments, killed his prophets and finally knocked off his son. And now we have some right to complain about the punishment?

But isn't that all according to his mysterious master plan? Why else would he both allow Satan into the garden and fail to give Adam and Eve understanding of right and wrong (considering that he knew what would happen if he did both, since he is omnipotent)? And didn't (ironically) Jesus have to die (for some arbitrary reason) for people to have salvation?

[exert transposed from another forum thread]

But the bible in gods own words contend that one is considered innocent as a baby. And he kills them alot in the OT. Then in the NT he reveals himself as unchanging.

If I'm born innocent, and have the choice up until the day of my death whether I'm a weed or grass, then why do you still tell me I've fallen? That we've all fallen? How the fuck is it benevolent in any way whatsoever to tumble innocents onto earth covered in the veil of sin by default, just so a few of them can overcome the sin and say they overcame the sin as they walk on all the sinners heads (which had to be there to get stepped on) in order for the righteous to get to freedom? Oh and forcefully leave the rest in hell else wise your reward is no longer a reward??

It's not benevolent. Period.

I can see how one might think it would be benevolent if when we died we all go to heaven/peace, and our lives are tribulations of the most minute discourse in comparison to the eternal scale. I just don't think someone who puts us in this system of torture in the first place could be benevolent in the long run either. Would you put your daughter in a sandbox with fireants and tell her to grab something buried in the sand if she wants to have cake as opposed to being grounded in the timeout chair for the rest of her life, when she comes out? If she failed and you let her out of the timeout chair early anyways you're still a dick. If she succeeded, and you gave her a cake the rest of her life and she wasn't permanently physically damaged: you can't take back what you made her do, and she can't take back in her mind what you did to her. Nothing can take back what's been done, or what will be done. The mere fact that we live in this world as we do, makes me think that there can't be a benevolent creator out there.

Quote:Finally, (according to the Christian God), we rejected his offer of paradise, ignored his commandments, killed his prophets and finally knocked off his son. And now we have some right to complain about the punishment?

I was born in 1982. I deny responsibility for offenses other people committed thousands of years before I took my first breath.

(March 26, 2013 at 9:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: How do you define "eternal"?

Everlasting, forever, unending...ect is there another definition.

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(March 26, 2013 at 9:56 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(March 26, 2013 at 9:42 pm)Godschild Wrote: People can only commit a certain number of sins before they die, however those sins are eternal unless they have been forgiven, thus eternal punishment (not torture) for eternal sins.

How can a finite action with finite consequences be eternal?

Because the sin is against God and He is eternal, only God can remove sin. If a sin is not removed it is eternal.

(March 26, 2013 at 8:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This was from another thread:

It's good to put in yourself in position of another, and ask what you think is the right thing to do with regards to yourself, and apply it to others.
If you were evil, would it be the right thing to have compassion yourself and hope you are forgiven and reformed or eternally tortured?
I believe it's the former.
Therefore I believe it's right to wish others compassion and they not be eternally tortured but forgiven and reformed.
Therefore I believe if there is a Creator that shares morality of humanity, it would be wrong of him to eternally torture humans for being evil.

How about this reasoning. It was largely invented by Dante Allegeri based upon horror stories of his time. To me that is much simpler and gets to the point of the invention of the whole thing and the prurient imaginations the came up with the ideas.

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(March 27, 2013 at 12:32 am)Godschild Wrote:

(March 26, 2013 at 9:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: How do you define "eternal"?

Everlasting, forever, unending...ect is there another definition.

When there is no time those words have no meaning. Care to try again?

Quote:

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(March 26, 2013 at 9:56 pm)Ryantology Wrote: How can a finite action with finite consequences be eternal?

Because the sin is against God and He is eternal, only God can remove sin. If a sin is not removed it is eternal.

So why did this god of yours create sin in the first place? All that exists is through your god so you claim. It created sin. And on the six day, why did it declare sin was good?

(March 26, 2013 at 10:07 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(March 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm)radorth Wrote: Finally, (according to the Christian God), we rejected his offer of paradise, ignored his commandments, killed his prophets and finally knocked off his son. And now we have some right to complain about the punishment?

But isn't that all according to his mysterious master plan? Why else would he both allow Satan into the garden and fail to give Adam and Eve understanding of right and wrong (considering that he knew what would happen if he did both, since he is omnipotent)? And didn't (ironically) Jesus have to die (for some arbitrary reason) for people to have salvation?

Adam and Eve knew the difference between right and wrong, why, they understood there was a consequence for their action to do different than God had instructed. They did not know what good and evil were, just as a child knows right from wrong long before they understand good and evil.

(March 27, 2013 at 1:00 am)Godschild Wrote: ...
Adam and Eve knew the difference between right and wrong,

But only AFTER the neutral act of discovering that character claiming to be a god was a lying piece of crap when they did not die.

Quote:why, they understood there was a consequence for their action to do different than God had instructed. They did not know what good and evil were, just as a child knows right from wrong long before they understand good and evil.

Please explain how right from wrong is different from good and evil. Tell me how you can deny evil is right and good is wrong when one does not know the difference. How big a laugh should I be prepared to get from your response?

(March 27, 2013 at 12:32 am)Godschild Wrote: Everlasting, forever, unending...ect is there another definition.

ANM Wrote:When there is no time those words have no meaning. Care to try again?

What are you talking about? It would be nice if you made sense.

GC Wrote:Because the sin is against God and He is eternal, only God can remove sin. If a sin is not removed it is eternal.

ANM Wrote:So why did this god of yours create sin in the first place? All that exists is through your god so you claim. It created sin. And on the six day, why did it declare sin was good?

God did not create sin, sin came into God's creation through the actions of Lucifer. I've never claimed sin was created by God, you have no idea what I claim, so stop putting words in my mouth.

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(March 27, 2013 at 1:00 am)Godschild Wrote: ...
Adam and Eve knew the difference between right and wrong,

ANM Wrote:But only AFTER the neutral act of discovering that character claiming to be a god was a lying piece of crap when they did not die.

Eve told the serpent the consequences of choosing wrong, Adam told Eve the consequences of choosing wrong. Before you try to argue scripture it would help if you would at least read the Bible.

GC Wrote:why, they understood there was a consequence for their action to do different than God had instructed. They did not know what good and evil were, just as a child knows right from wrong long before they understand good and evil.

ANM Wrote:Please explain how right from wrong is different from good and evil. Tell me how you can deny evil is right and good is wrong when one does not know the difference. How big a laugh should I be prepared to get from your response?

Evil /adj. Wicked, causing or threatening harm or distress.
Evil /noun The fact of suffering, misfortune and wrongdoing.
Good : of a favorable character or tendency, commendable, virtuous.
Adam and Eve did not know these things, what they knew was there was a consequence for choosing wrongly.
Right/adj. proper, correct
Wrong/adj. not right according to a standard. noun: unjust act
These are the thins Adam and Eve understood.
Laugh all you want, it will be at yourself.