(March 27, 2013 at 11:54 pm)catfish Wrote:

Quote:The only difference is, doing so from an atheist perspective is more intellectually honest because we're the only ones not taking the words we're interpreting as binding declarations.

Really man, I wanna see you type it out because I know it's what you think.

"I, (state your name), have a more logical mind because I have an objective opinion."

(March 28, 2013 at 12:10 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(March 27, 2013 at 11:54 pm)catfish Wrote: Really man, I wanna see you type it out because I know it's what you think.

"I, (state your name), have a more logical mind because I have an objective opinion."

Nobody has an objective opinion. But don't you think the guy whose belief system isn't tied up in the inerrant, divine perfection of something might be a little better equipped to critically evaluate it? We've all seen the mental gymnastics theists use to justify the bullshit things that pop up in all sorts of religious books.

Nobody has an objective opinion, but any level of objectivity is impossible when you fully believe that the safety of your immortal soul is contingent on obeying the edicts of a book.

(March 28, 2013 at 12:22 am)catfish Wrote: If someone gives a verse from earlier in the Bible that says God ordered genocide and I show you a later verse that says it was a lie, which would you believe and why?

(March 28, 2013 at 12:24 am)Ryantology Wrote:

(March 28, 2013 at 12:22 am)catfish Wrote: If someone gives a verse from earlier in the Bible that says God ordered genocide and I show you a later verse that says it was a lie, which would you believe and why?

Neither. The contradiction will justify the viewpoint that the entire thing is entirely unreliable.

(March 28, 2013 at 12:22 am)catfish Wrote: So then you're strawmanning me as you know I don't consider the Bible inerrant, infallible or divine.

Quote:Yeah? I'd be willing to bet that you go right back to claiming the God of the Bible ordered genocide within a week if not immediately.

(March 28, 2013 at 12:29 am)jstrodel Wrote: God doesn't order genocide anywhere in the Bible. Read the story of Sodom and Gommorah. God says for the sake of 5 righteous people, he will not destroy Sodom. God's judgements are aimed at the wickedness of the canaanites, not the color of their skin. Because they are evil people "their destable deeds" not because of their skin color, God destroys them.

Quote:The Bible does not sanction genocide. What it does sanction is judgement on wicked people that God personally considers to deserve punishment. This is similar to what the allied nations did in world war 2 when they fought against Hitler and the Japanese and killed many, many civilians, knowing they would kill civilians in a war, or what nations do when they punish criminals.

Quote:God is interested in punishing sin, not arbitrarily killing people.

(March 27, 2013 at 7:19 am)smax Wrote:

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As someone who spent over 25 years practicing the Christian faith, and who has since found greater liberty and personal fulfillment outside of that practice, I would like to encourage all Christians to consider some of the more compelling reasons to question your faith. Here are a few:

#1. Lack of Validity.

Christianity fails to substantiate even the most basic of it’s claims, such as the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. But even more compelling is the fact that the story of Jesus is part of a collection of books filled with scientific impossibilities, contradictions, and bogus history.

Christopher Hitchens once said, “The bible makes magnificent claims, we should require magnificent proof.”

Now, of course, Christians will counter that by saying, “God must leave plenty of room for faith”. There are, however, two fundamental problems with that perspective:

(a) It leaves far too much room for error. If faith is the primary driving force behind a person’s belief, what is to stop them from believing in any number of other religious ideas or practices? Faith without first having good reason is meaningless.

(b) According to the Bible, faith is not the means by which god has inspired his most important followers:

Moses, for example was shown a burning bush, which actually spoke to him and very specifically declared:

"Don't come any closer, take off your sandals because you are in the presence of God. I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Even at that, Moses still had his doubts, so he was given even more undeniable evidence, as well as the power to demonstrate his god ordained purpose to others. (Exodus Chapter 3)

Also, The Apostle Paul, a man initially portrayed in scripture as a persecutor of Christians, was shown a brilliant light, physically knocked to the ground, and was then given very specific instructions from an audible voice. Further more, he was blinded and then given his sight back. (Acts 9:3-9)

And there are literally dozens upon dozens of other examples of characters in the Bible being inspired to serve god as the result of some supernatural event that was clearly a message from god.

#2. Immorality.

Dr. William Lane Craig, a well known Christian apologist, loves, in his defense of theism, to claim that, without god, there is no objective morality. I happen to disagree with that, and I’ll expand here:

If, by “Objective Morality”, it is the Christian position that morality has a permanently fixed set of unalterable standards, then it my position that such a thing does not exist with or without god.

However, if “Objective Morality” is merely meant to point to the pursuit of accomplishing a logical and beneficial objective, then I would argue that the only sensible standard of morality is that of the preservation, success, and further evolution of human kind. Within that frame work, human decency, the betterment and quality of human life, and environmental, political, and social issues have the very best chance of being effectively resolved and productively furthered.

In contrast, Christianity offers no practical solution for the survival and success of man kind, and instead trivializes human life while promoting completely unstubstantiated claims of an eternal spiritual existence beyond the grave.

Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

And this same lack of regard for human life and human decency is repeated and illustrated all throughout the Bible.

With that in mind, is it any wonder why Christians throughout history have committed so many terrible atrocities? Once you strip a human being of his regard for human life (especially his own) with promises of eternal and spiritual prosperity, you create a potentially homicidal maniac that will do anything in the name of god.

#3. Heaven’s Hell.

Even If you can look past the counter-productive moral implications, and the lack of any compelling evidence to support the claims of Christianity, you still have to face the terrible reality of what it claims will be the ultimate outcome of it's followers. Observe:

Revalation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Revalation 22:4-5:
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

The eternal life that a Christian is working toward and hoping for, according to scripture, is one of constant praise, worship, and slavery (Rom 6:22) of an extremely boring and self-centered egomaniac that intends to strip his servants of any kind of meaningful free will or independent interest.

I’m not sure which is the more wishful thinking: that the heaven of the bible exists at all, or that it's actually a place worth going to.

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(March 28, 2013 at 12:24 am)Ryantology Wrote:

(March 28, 2013 at 12:22 am)catfish Wrote: If someone gives a verse from earlier in the Bible that says God ordered genocide and I show you a later verse that says it was a lie, which would you believe and why?

Neither. The contradiction will justify the viewpoint that the entire thing is entirely unreliable.

(March 28, 2013 at 12:10 am)Esquilax Wrote: Nobody has an objective opinion. But don't you think the guy whose belief system isn't tied up in the inerrant, divine perfection of something might be a little better equipped to critically evaluate it? We've all seen the mental gymnastics theists use to justify the bullshit things that pop up in all sorts of religious books.

Nobody has an objective opinion, but any level of objectivity is impossible when you fully believe that the safety of your immortal soul is contingent on obeying the edicts of a book.

(March 28, 2013 at 1:07 am)Godschild Wrote: You are another one who spats alot of spittle without ever using the scripture to prove a point.