(March 30, 2013 at 9:44 pm)SHIN KAIRI Wrote:

What a shame you've been banned. I was going to school you on what the Holey Babble really has to say about the love our Lord has for the little brats.

First of all, cite me chapter and verse where the Holey Babble has anything to say about life beginning at conception. Don't waste your time. It aint there. No more than "one-man-and-one-woman" and "age-of-accountability". The closest you dumb-ass phony Christians who like to make shit up and shove those words into the mouth of the Lord can come is a quote from Jeremiah wrenched so out of context you can clearly make out the pickaxe marks from where it was quote mined.

Just to save you some time, Jeremiah 1:5 does not say life begins prior to birth. It speaks of the Lord's ability to see into the future. If lil Jeremiah when he was a kid was destined to be stoned to death for mouthing off to his dad, then Gawd wouldn't have chosen him to be a prophet.

And speaking of this, Deut 21 makes it pretty darn clear that at any time the father chooses, he can have the little brat stoned in the town square just for disobedience.

Quote:Deut 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: hen shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

And abortion? The husband gets to have a faithless wife have a magically induced abortion again by his say-so.

Quote: Numbers 5:12-27 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner; And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled: Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance. And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD: And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water: And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse: And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

What does "thigh to rot" mean? Miscarriage!

Quote:NIV Num 5:27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

A holy abortion! And the woman has no choice in the matter! Praise the sweet name of Jesus!

And then there's all the verses about pregnant women being ripped apart and children's heads being dashed against the rocks but that's enough verses for now...

(April 4, 2013 at 8:46 am)whateverist Wrote: So very sorry for your loss. Obviously abortions, natural or otherwise are complicated and sad. However, I fully support the right of the person in whose body the would-be person is growing to choose what is right and what they can endure.

Thanks (everyone). I support anyone's right to choose too. I think it's a choice of taking life though. I think people should face up to that.

Remember I've been pro choice up until last year. My own circumstances have no bearing on my thoughts about this.

Every now and again I see glimmers of why certain folks like you Frodo..lol.

(April 4, 2013 at 12:44 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Every now and again I see glimmers of why certain folks like you Frodo..lol.

It's because he's blue

And have you seen his hair? Awesome stuff

Quote:That’s interesting, only a potential life? Which of the functions of life does a fetus not meet? I am not aware of any defensible way to argue that a fetus is not alive or not human.

Well, Jesus was Jewish no? Do you disagree with the Jewish biblical stance on the matter?


Exodus 21:22‑23, where Scripture states: “When men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other misfortune ensues, the one responsible shall be fined as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on judges’ reckoning. But if other misfortune ensues, the penalty shall be life for life.”

The Talmud explains that the embryo is part of the mother’s body and has no identity of its own, since it is dependent for its life upon the body of the woman. However, as soon as it starts to move from the womb, it is considered an autonomous being (nefesh) and thus unaffected by the mother’s state.

Mishnah, explains that the fetus is not considered a nefesh until it has egressed into the air of the world and, therefore, one is permitted to destroy it to save the mother’s life. In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.”


How are we going to come to a consensus? We must define when a human life becomes a person.

What we all agree upon?

religious tolerance.org Wrote:
In reality, there exists many broad agreements by the two opposing sides:

*A common belief among pro-lifers and pro-choicers is that an ovum is alive. Thus, because it contains human DNA, they consider it to be a form of human life. According to some scientists' extremely restrictive definition of "life," an ovum is not actually alive. But the public almost universally agrees that they are a form of human life.

*An ovum is not considered a human person.

*Similarly a spermatozoon is considered a form of human life by almost everyone.

*A spermatozoon is not viewed to be a human person. A man produces thousands every second between puberty and death. All but perhaps one or two die produced during his lifetime without fertilizing an ovum. We have never found anyone who worries about that.

*There is a near consensus that at, or shortly after conception, a zygote or pre-embryo -- popularly called a fertilized ovum -- is a form of human life. The zygote is "...is biologically alive. It fulfills the four strictest criteria needed to establish biological life:
metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction."

Its reproductive ability is only demonstrated in about one in 60 births, when it reproduces itself through twinning. This can happen at any time up to about 14 days after conception. This is how mono-zygotic (identical) twins are caused.

*An embryo is also a form of human life.

*A fetus is still another, more developed, form of human life.

*A newborn baby is both a form of human life and a human person.

*During the entire nine months between:

*The meeting of an ovum and one very lucky spermatozoon at conception, and


*The birth of a newborn baby, human life has continuously existed.

*Pro-choicers and pro-lifers generally believe that at some time between conception and birth human life becomes a human person. The new person has rights including the right to continue to live.

*After human personhood is present, both sides agree that an abortion should not be allowed, except under very unusual circumstances, such as:

*To save the life of the woman,

*Perhaps to avoid serious long-term injury or permanent disability to the woman,

*Perhaps if the pregnancy had been initiated by rape or incest.

*Perhaps if the fetus is determined to suffer from a major genetic defect.


Most pro-lifers would probably agree that if we are unsure, we should err on the side of life. A visitor to this web site wrote:

"If we are killing 3,000 fetuses a day that at least have the possibility of being human persons, shouldn’t we protect them just to be sure? If a hunter sees something moving in a bush, he just doesn’t shoot it because it sounds like it could be a deer. He makes absolutely sure it is a deer before he kills it. Just like we should be absolutely sure that human fetuses are not human persons deserving all rights in society before we kill them. Since we probably will never be absolutely sure, we should not allow any fetuses to be killed. What if society is wrong and they are in fact human persons deserving all rights in society. Then we would have to accept that we have killed off over 43 million people."

In reality, 90% of all abortions are performed during the first three months of gestation. An embryo becomes a fetus only after about the 3rd month of gestation. Thus a large percentage of the 3,000 abortions terminate the life of an embryo, not a fetus.

So, when do you think human life becomes a human person?





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I like how the pro-lifer started out with how we should protect them until we're sure - with the caveat immediately following "since we'll probably never be absolutely sure"...lol. I'd wager that said pro-lifer is incapable of considering the one without the other. It's a package deal. Wouldn't offer our surety as a pro-choice argument if they thought there was even a chance that we might possess it.

(April 4, 2013 at 11:03 am)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: First of all, cite me chapter and verse where the Holey Babble has anything to say about life beginning at conception. Don't waste your time. It aint there.

Perhaps life beginning at conception is so self-evident and ridiculously clear that scripture didn’t waste it’s time affirming it. Biologically we know that life begins at conception. Logically, any argument trying to suggest it doesn’t begin at conception can be reduced to absurdity, you cannot win this debate.

Life began long before conception. Conception is just one (of many) points that life tosses out some spores.

(April 4, 2013 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Biologically we know that life begins at conception.

The question is not When does life begin?, but rather When does that life obtain personhood?

(April 4, 2013 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Perhaps life beginning at conception is so self-evident and ridiculously clear that scripture didn’t waste it’s time affirming it.

Yet scripture was required to tell men that fucking animals was bad.