You inject too many "if's".

Well both naturalism wise and design wise, it makes sense our decisions would not be in a vacuum, or there would be no order to any degree at all. People who are good their whole lives, can decide in instant, without any factors influencing them, to become ultra evil. It's absurd.

A concept of praiseworthiness was needed naturalism wise, whether such a thing exists or is possible naturalism wise is another question, but it was needed.

Therefore on both models (designed or non-designed)...it doesn't make sense we make decisions in a vacuum but have to have factors influencing us.

(April 4, 2013 at 12:21 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well both naturalism wise and design wise, it makes sense our decisions would not be in a vacuum, or there would be no order to any degree at all. People who are good their whole lives, can decide in instant, without any factors influencing them, to become ultra evil. It's absurd.

You're simply assuming what I'm asking you to establish, that they do decide. Nevertheless, if we granted that we are capable of "choosing" some things, that would not establish that we can "choose" all things. I could choose to light my cig, for example, but that wouldn't establish that I choose to believe something.

Quote:A concept of praiseworthiness was needed naturalism wise, whether such a thing exists or is possible naturalism wise is another question, but it was needed.

What? Why was it needed? Now we're really headed down the rabbit hole.

Quote:Therefore on both models (designed or non-designed)...it doesn't make sense we make decisions in a vacuum but have to have factors influencing us.

See above. Wouldn't matter anyway, I'm not demanding that anyone make a choice about their beliefs in a vacuum. I just want to see them make the choice. It would be nice if they could do it right now, or on demand, but if they can't I have time to spare - I'll wait. Until then - however-, I'm going to continue to call massive bullshit. The whole choice song and dance is insultingly transparent.

I didn't say things happen in a vacuum, just that it's hard to follow your 'arguments' when you seemingly start threading other pieces into them instead of sticking to the task at hand.

(April 4, 2013 at 12:26 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: I didn't say things happen in a vacuum, just that it's hard to follow your 'arguments' when you seemingly start threading other pieces into them instead of sticking to the task at hand.

I was replying to Rhythm. I use "If" though because when you say "You don't make a decision in x...", I can show a scenario where it's possible that you are doing a decision.

Of course, like I stated to Rhythm, I don't believe I can demonstrate free-will or that we chose our beliefs.

So it's a case of "I believe that we choose our beliefs" and as a response to the question -do we choose our beliefs-....what would you call that?

Quote:Nevertheless, if we granted that we are capable of "choosing" some things, that would not establish that we can "choose" all things.

True enough.

Quote:I could choose to light my cig, for example, but that wouldn't establish that I choose to believe something.

True.

Quote:What? Why was it needed? Now we're really headed down the rabbit hole.

Because we had intelligence and communication and we needed harmony, etc...we wouldn't be satisfied doing things without believing intrinsic value to that, even if that value was in an instance serving ourselves. But it's mostly for others and doing good to others, and getting positive feed back.

We also wouldn't have structure of morality, if no one praised any action or person.

Quote:See above. Wouldn't matter anyway, I'm not demanding that anyone make a choice about their beliefs in a vacuum. I just want to see them make the choice. It would be nice if they could do it right now, or on demand, but if they can't I have time to spare - I'll wait. Until then - however-, I'm going to continue to call massive bullshit. The whole choice song and dance is about insultingly transparent.

But if he made a decision, what can he possibly say that shows he made a decision with regards to belief?

If I said I chose to believe 9/11 was wrong in my teens, when at a moment it was confusing...I had to make a decision...and now that I've grown stronger in that decision, in seeing it's wrong...etc...how am I suppose to demonstrate the "will" in that and the choice?

It's unseen, and can't be proven empirically but perhaps, perhaps, can be witnessed via experience of your own decisions of beliefs.

(April 4, 2013 at 12:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Because we had intelligence and communication and we needed harmony, etc...we wouldn't be satisfied doing things without believing intrinsic value to that, even if that value was in an instance serving ourselves. But it's mostly for others and doing good to others, and getting positive feed back.

We also wouldn't have structure of morality, if no one praised any action or person.

I think you've confused what you have, what you prefer, with what may have been needed. Any concept that achieved the same result as you feel "praiseworthiness" achieves would stand in just fine for "praiseworthiness". Just because your view of morality seems to require praiseworthiness does not mean that all morality requires it, or that some other morality (or as above...anything that achieves the same effect) could not have stood in. What this has to do with naturalism.......specifically, has eluded me.

Quote:But if he made a decision, what can he possibly say that shows he made a decision with regards to belief?

Oh, I'd take his word for it with very few provisions, mostly related to the transparency I mentioned. I like to be thorough - so I;d set up a couple of (admittedly easy to overcome barriers) to tomfoolery.

Quote:If I said I chose to believe 9/11 was wrong in my teens, when at a moment it was confusing...I had to make a decision...and now that I've grown stronger in that decision, in seeing it's wrong...etc...how am I suppose to demonstrate the "will" in that and the choice?

That would be a poor place to put our test. If we wanted confidence in our results we would start at a point of common experience. The present, for example. We would have our belief put down in a clear way- in a public way, so that we could refer to it later - when we managed to make that choice we claim we are capable of making.

Quote:It's unseen, and can't be proven empirically but perhaps, perhaps, can be witnessed via experience of your own decisions of beliefs.

My own experience is that I do not choose to believe things. This doesn't mean that no one else does, but I'd like to see it done. Think of it like this, if someone told you that they could fly (and you couldn't...despite for all you know, being the same creature) you'd really like to see that wouldn't you? If the request was followed by no demonstration - but in fact a list of excuses....you'd call bullshit, wouldn't you?

I believe choosing what to believe in terms of having adhering to a religious belief or discounting any and all religious belief is a choice that can be made. Not everyone raised into a certain belief system blindly believes what they are being taught, and some people do question their belief system as adults when they are older and wiser to understand the distinction between fantasy and reality. What triggers the questioning and onset of dissent from belief, however, could be due to any number of factors.

(April 4, 2013 at 2:45 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: I believe choosing what to believe in terms of having adhering to a religious belief or discounting any and all religious belief is a choice that can be made.

Like mystic, you believe that you can choose what you believe. That doesn't tie you in a knot? Did you choose to believe what you believe about our ability to choose our beliefs -ad infinutum

Quote: Not everyone raised into a certain belief system blindly believes what they are being taught, and some people do question their belief system as adults when they are older and wiser to understand the distinction between fantasy and reality. What triggers the questioning and onset of dissent from belief, however, could be due to any number of factors.

What triggers that, and precisely what "that" is -is precisely the point of contention. Do people wake up and say "I choose not to believe everything people tell me about gods today" - or is it a situation of waking up and saying to oneself "I cannot believe everything people tell me about gods anymore". I'm asking this honestly, because I have no experience of any choice like that. One of those would seem to be a situation in which choice had no part - choice, for example, could not salvage. Say you reached that "I cannot believe" point, can you then choose to believe everything people say again?

(if you ever became a believer, and could describe that choice and how it -was- a choice would you be willing to return to this thread - if the forum is still up, and lay out the experience, btw?)