(April 5, 2013 at 8:52 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Agreed. I can chose to "believe" in Dragons.

Or just go to Komodo Island and see some for yourself.

Joel Wrote:I don't think so.
It seems anybody that doesn't believe says that belief isn't a choice.
Anybody that does believe seems to tell me that they choose to believe and atheists choose not to believe.

I find this patently absurd. Is it just me that seems to find this correlation?

I actually disagree with both parties =)

The believer does not choose. Faith is a gift from God. This is in line with the believer's will, but it is actually God's free and unmerited favor (Grace) that allows for the "choice" (which really should be "disposition") in the first place. The same grace is offered to the unbeliever, and if they were to "choose" God it's because of God's grace, but since they instead reject God's grace, it cannot be God's fault. Therefore, even if God offered it, it was a rejection by the unbeliever.

I do understand that no one will agree with me. It's ok.

(April 6, 2013 at 1:15 am)Tex Wrote: I do understand that no one will agree with me. It's ok.

I disagree with that :p

I don't believe in choice. That's not a joke either.

fr0d0 Wrote:I disagree with that :p

Some people... =p

Gearbreak Wrote:I don't believe in choice. That's not a joke either.

Do you choose this belief? =)

It is your choice to seek to understand things in terms of what is important rather than what you want. It is your choice to get out of your comfort zone and explore difficult things.

It is your choice to accept certain types of authority as legitimate, while others you attach less legitimacy to. It is your choice to ultimately trust someone or not.

Yes, it is your choice to believe, belief need not conform to external criteria of acceptability (falsifiability, etc, things that are foreign to the Biblical view of knowledge). It is your choice if you see contradictions to seek out informed Christian perspectives and not rush to find books that you can easily refute.


It is your choice in the end to say, being a good person is more important than my standard of truth, and perhaps Christianity can offer insight to this problem, though at this point my own methods of understanding cannot penetrate it.

(April 5, 2013 at 3:23 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(April 5, 2013 at 8:52 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Agreed. I can chose to "believe" in Dragons.

Or just go to Komodo Island and see some for yourself.

Earth Dragons? Yeah we have them here in Oz.


Nah...The big Silver and Black ones/ Fire breathing/ Gold hoarding type. Best beasties mankind ever dreamt up imho

(April 6, 2013 at 6:15 pm)jstrodel Wrote: It is your choice....

Well, except that the world is probably deterministic so that the word "choice" probably means something slightly different to that imagined by most people.

(April 7, 2013 at 1:05 pm)GordonHide Wrote:

(April 6, 2013 at 6:15 pm)jstrodel Wrote: It is your choice....

Well, except that the world is probably deterministic so that the word "choice" probably means something slightly different to that imagined by most people.

Empirically, rationally, yes I agree with you.

But something else, something deeper, something mysterious, tells me no, we are free, we do as we please and please as we will and will what we will, and will what we will by which we will, and on to infinitum.

(April 6, 2013 at 1:15 am)Tex Wrote: The believer does not choose. Faith is a gift from God. This is in line with the believer's will, but it is actually God's free and unmerited favor (Grace) that allows for the "choice" (which really should be "disposition") in the first place.

What?! Your parents, Sunday school teacher and minister get no credit at all for faithfully serving your cult's kool aid ever since you were born? I really think you aren't giving them enough credit.

(April 6, 2013 at 1:15 am)Tex Wrote: The same grace is offered to the unbeliever, and if they were to "choose" God it's because of God's grace, but since they instead reject God's grace, it cannot be God's fault. Therefore, even if God offered it, it was a rejection by the unbeliever.

Bullshit. You just get up there in heaven and enjoy the wailing of the damned down in hell. Looks like you'll have no trouble enjoying yours even if you know some of your friends and family will be having eternal torment. What a sick, twisted fantasy life you have.

(April 6, 2013 at 1:15 am)Tex Wrote: I do understand that no one will agree with me. It's ok.

Thank you for your graceful acceptance of my differing opinion. It must be more of God's grace.