(April 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm)Tex Wrote: I like to play this game sometimes. The entire bible is infallible. What area would you like to tell me contradicts?

What do you mean by infallible? Because it obviously doesn't mean "always correct," in your parlance, because the bible is factually wrong on numerous points. So... you know, help us out, define your terms before we begin shooting these fish you've so helpfully put into a barrel for us.

I'm using infallible to speak of what it teaches. Ya, some numbers are definitely off and multiple variations of stories are sometimes told, but that which is to be derived from the text is "always correct".

(April 16, 2013 at 10:55 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(April 16, 2013 at 10:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: I lost one of my youth to a car accident when I was a youth leader in my church. I will never forget walking into our kitchen and hearing the news of her death, tears flowed, my heart sank because I loved her as I loved the rest. I believed her not to be saved because of comments made in class, this is one of the reasons it hurt so much. Your youth leader was showing his sense of loss even though he/she did not know your friend, that is a response when one is in a relationship with God, most wouldn't cry but would have a sense of loss, it's all about being a part of God.

Yes, and the reason he was crying is because he believed that my friend wasn't in heaven. It goes to show that there are Christians (e.g. everyone I know in real life) who believe there are necessary things we have to believe about Christianity in order to go to heaven.

I do not disagree with you unless you're talking about works.

(April 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm)Tex Wrote:

(April 16, 2013 at 3:50 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: Yes it does. The definition of faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

It is total blind faith. And you know what, whatever floats your boat. I have friends who are religious who completely acknowledge that their religion is on nothing but faith.

I'd like you to acknowledge it as well.

Your friends are wrong. Plus, I've been defining faith as "relationship with God/trust in God" this whole time. Assuming your friends are Christians, the book of James states that the demons believe in God. Belief with respect to salvation obviously is a little more than the recognition of existence.

But you realize that the definition of faith I stated is an actual dictionary definition of the word?

And no, they're right. You're wrong. What else is there to back your belief other than faith?

(April 17, 2013 at 5:44 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm)Tex Wrote: Your friends are wrong. Plus, I've been defining faith as "relationship with God/trust in God" this whole time. Assuming your friends are Christians, the book of James states that the demons believe in God. Belief with respect to salvation obviously is a little more than the recognition of existence.

But you realize that the definition of faith I stated is an actual dictionary definition of the word?

And no, they're right. You're wrong. What else is there to back your belief other than faith?

And I reject the dictionary definition of the word. I reject any truth in the statement "faith is blind". And I obviously reject the theology your friends have. Do not assume I am like your friends. Christianity comes in many shapes and sizes.

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Again, faith is trust. It does not have to be blind, especially when you consider the OT. Verses like this come to mind:

Exodus 13:7-9
"Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days; no leavened bread shall be seen with you, and no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory. You shall tell your son on that day, ‘It is because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt.’ And it shall be to you as a sign on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth. For with a strong hand the Lord has brought you out of Egypt."

For the old testament Jew, faith was based in the action of God, those miracles. A common phrase to inspire trust is, "I, the Lord God who brought you out of Israel...". It's a faith based in God's own actions, and God explicitly uses this base to inspire faith.

Today, we do not get a cloud of fire by night or great miracles. However, today has the past, which includes these things. If we want, we can investigate the possibility of such things, which allows us further basis for our trust.

Darkstar asked me what the informed faith was, and I said,

"The 'backing' (which technically isn't required and people ignore it for God knows why) is most accurately understood in logical formula, but it is still present even without that."

I'd like to change the parenthetical "and" to "yet", but its far too late to edit a post.

As a biblical support to that, John 1 calls Jesus "the Word". In Latin, it is "Verbum", like the English "verb" meaning both word and action (he is creator), but the Greek uses "Logos", like the Engish "logic" meaning both reason and word. Both "action" and "logic" are also accurate descriptions (greek translations still use Logos, spanish uses Verbo), but the connotation of "logic" here is exactly what we think it is. Aqunias usually uses the word "Wisdom" when referring to this aspect (corresponds to Proverbs better).

(April 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm)Tex Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 5:44 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: But you realize that the definition of faith I stated is an actual dictionary definition of the word?

And no, they're right. You're wrong. What else is there to back your belief other than faith?

And I reject the dictionary definition of the word. I reject any truth in the statement "faith is blind". And I obviously reject the theology your friends have. Do not assume I am like your friends. Christianity comes in many shapes and sizes.

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Again, faith is trust. It does not have to be blind, especially when you consider the OT. Verses like this come to mind:

Exodus 13:7-9
"Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days; no leavened bread shall be seen with you, and no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory. You shall tell your son on that day, ‘It is because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt.’ And it shall be to you as a sign on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth. For with a strong hand the Lord has brought you out of Egypt."

For the old testament Jew, faith was based in the action of God, those miracles. A common phrase to inspire trust is, "I, the Lord God who brought you out of Israel...". It's a faith based in God's own actions, and God explicitly uses this base to inspire faith.

Today, we do not get a cloud of fire by night or great miracles. However, today has the past, which includes these things. If we want, we can investigate the possibility of such things, which allows us further basis for our trust.

Darkstar asked me what the informed faith was, and I said,

"The 'backing' (which technically isn't required and people ignore it for God knows why) is most accurately understood in logical formula, but it is still present even without that."

I'd like to change the parenthetical "and" to "yet", but its far too late to edit a post.

As a biblical support to that, John 1 calls Jesus "the Word". In Latin, it is "Verbum", like the English "verb" meaning both word and action (he is creator), but the Greek uses "Logos", like the Engish "logic" meaning both reason and word. Both "action" and "logic" are also accurate descriptions (greek translations still use Logos, spanish uses Verbo), but the connotation of "logic" here is exactly what we think it is. Aqunias usually uses the word "Wisdom" when referring to this aspect (corresponds to Proverbs better).

This all seems like mental gymnastics to me. Cognitive Dissonance. Doesn't it all seem like so much work trying to rationalize?
Just look at the world around you.
Like Doug once said.

Quote:Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

(April 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm)Tex Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 5:44 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: But you realize that the definition of faith I stated is an actual dictionary definition of the word?

And no, they're right. You're wrong. What else is there to back your belief other than faith?

And I reject the dictionary definition of the word. I reject any truth in the statement "faith is blind". And I obviously reject the theology your friends have. Do not assume I am like your friends. Christianity comes in many shapes and sizes.

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Again, faith is trust. It does not have to be blind, especially when you consider the OT. Verses like this come to mind:

Exodus 13:7-9
"Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days; no leavened bread shall be seen with you, and no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory. You shall tell your son on that day, ‘It is because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt.’ And it shall be to you as a sign on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth. For with a strong hand the Lord has brought you out of Egypt."

For the old testament Jew, faith was based in the action of God, those miracles. A common phrase to inspire trust is, "I, the Lord God who brought you out of Israel...". It's a faith based in God's own actions, and God explicitly uses this base to inspire faith.

Today, we do not get a cloud of fire by night or great miracles. However, today has the past, which includes these things. If we want, we can investigate the possibility of such things, which allows us further basis for our trust.

Darkstar asked me what the informed faith was, and I said,

"The 'backing' (which technically isn't required and people ignore it for God knows why) is most accurately understood in logical formula, but it is still present even without that."

I'd like to change the parenthetical "and" to "yet", but its far too late to edit a post.

As a biblical support to that, John 1 calls Jesus "the Word". In Latin, it is "Verbum", like the English "verb" meaning both word and action (he is creator), but the Greek uses "Logos", like the Engish "logic" meaning both reason and word. Both "action" and "logic" are also accurate descriptions (greek translations still use Logos, spanish uses Verbo), but the connotation of "logic" here is exactly what we think it is. Aqunias usually uses the word "Wisdom" when referring to this aspect (corresponds to Proverbs better).

Why isn't backing required? There must be a real reason why you believe. The proof of your religion lies in the Bible? This is what you use to make yourself think Christianity is true? If so, what about the Quoran? What makes the Quoran incorrect?

If your response is simply, "because I just have faith the Christian God is real," that is irrational, blind faith.

I'm going to be really terse, not to be rude, but just because it seems like you're not desiring the somewhat detailed posts I usually give.

CleanShavenJesus Wrote:Why isn't backing required? There must be a real reason why you believe. The proof of your religion lies in the Bible? This is what you use to make yourself think Christianity is true? If so, what about the Quoran? What makes the Quoran incorrect?

If your response is simply, "because I just have faith the Christian God is real," that is irrational, blind faith.

Backing is not required for salvation. But there is backing, and the backing is good to know.

The proof of my religion begins in history and is confirmed through logic.

The Quran is known to be incorrect both through skeptical (if not completely lacking) historicity and logical incoherency.

Brayton.l Wrote:This all seems like mental gymnastics to me. Cognitive Dissonance. Doesn't it all seem like so much work trying to rationalize?
Just look at the world around you.
Like Doug once said.

Quote:Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

A more renown person said, "The unexamined life is not worth living". I like questions.

Tex Wrote:The proof of my religion...is confirmed through logic.

No it's not. The OP makes a logical conclusion that God should reveal himself. This hasn't been refuted, therefore meaning you in actual fact worship an evil god or a non-existent god. Take your pick.

(April 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm)Tex Wrote:

(April 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm)Esquilax Wrote: What do you mean by infallible? Because it obviously doesn't mean "always correct," in your parlance, because the bible is factually wrong on numerous points. So... you know, help us out, define your terms before we begin shooting these fish you've so helpfully put into a barrel for us.

I'm using infallible to speak of what it teaches. Ya, some numbers are definitely off and multiple variations of stories are sometimes told, but that which is to be derived from the text is "always correct".

But not all of what it teaches, either. I mean, you don't take what your god teaches about slavery to be at all true, nor his urging you to execute people for nonbelief.

Be honest: when you say "derived from the text," what you really mean is "the passages that I like and that aren't too politically incorrect," no?

(April 17, 2013 at 11:44 pm)Tex Wrote: The proof of my religion begins in history and is confirmed through logic.

It is only confirmed by threads of logic which originate with the unfounded and never-demonstrated assumption that your religion is true and that your God exists.

Also, that is precisely what our Muslims say about the Qu'ran when we ask them.

Quote:The Quran is known to be incorrect both through skeptical (if not completely lacking) historicity and logical incoherency.

That is precisely what our Muslims say about the Bible when we ask them.

If in very few others, this is one instance in which you're both right.